Coping as a Marketer in 2025 | E92 with Work is Weird Now

Why does marketing feel… weird right now? 😵‍💫 Budgets are tight, algorithms won’t sit still, AI is everywhere, and juniors are somehow expected to be CMOs. So how are marketers actually coping—and still shipping great work?

In this episode, we’re joined by Dan & Alice, co-hosts of Work Is Weird Now, for a brutally honest chat about staying sane, creative, and effective when the ground keeps moving.

We get into:
 ✅ Boundaries > burnout: muting, blocking, and setting “rules for scrolling” so you can actually think
 ✅ “Certainty theatre” vs. test-and-learn: how to make the case for experiments when leadership wants guarantees
 ✅ The junior trap: why you still need senior thinking, horizon-scanning, and context (and what’s fair to expect from juniors)
 ✅ In-house, agency & community: finding the support system that keeps you sharp (and human)
 ✅ AI without the eye-roll: practical ways to use it without losing your voice—plus what new tools mean for real creativity
 ✅ Events, content, and the attribution mirage: measuring what matters when not everything can be measured
✅ Coping tactics that actually help: small wins, shipping momentum, and protecting your creative time

If your job currently requires equal parts strategy, creativity, and emotional resilience, this one’s for you. 🎧

We’re Ruta and Emma, the marketing consultants behind Blame it on Marketing. 

If you’re in B2B SaaS or professional services and looking to do marketing that actually drives revenue and profit, we’re here for it.

Visit blameitonmarketing.com and let’s get this show on the road.

Transcript

1:33

welcome to Blame It On Marketing with Emma and Ruta. And today we are going to be discussing how the hell marketers are actually still even managing to function and do their jobs. We don't know. We don't know. Spoiler alert. And we are joined by two excellent... guests, we're really happy to have another female podcast duo on with us. So we have got Dan and Alice from Work Is Weird Now and their podcast. So yeah, ladies over to you to do a quick intro. Tell us about yourselves and the podcast. Thank you for such a glorious intro. We're very excited to be here because we've been fangirling over you guys for quite some time now, you know? think yours was one of the pods that I first discovered as we were going on this like, do we do a marketing podcast journey, et cetera. Anyway, I'm Dan Emery and co-host of Work is Weird Now alongside... I'm Alice Phillips. am the other co-host of Work is Weird Now. And yeah, we both have marketing backgrounds. Mine's more in the kind of brand and content side and Dan's more on sort of regular old marketing side. um So yeah, yeah, exactly. So a lot of the lens through which we see weird work comes from our backgrounds as independent and working for a company marketing people. So yeah. Mmm. Why did you end up going with work is weird now? What, like? when we originally started talking about it, as Dan said, we were talking about doing a marketing podcast because obviously that's sort of the realm of expertise that we sit in. But it's so funny because when she first came to me about it, I felt like my energy drop, no offense to your marketing podcast. happens a lot when people talk to me. uh but I think, you know, and this is probably some of the stuff that we'll get into on this podcast, but I'm now 47. And I've reached a point in my career where I'm kind of questioning what the future looks like for all the things I've done in the past. And so for me, the idea of talking about something that almost feels like it's evolving so quickly that it's becoming something that doesn't have the same... sort of degree of rich content to talk about anymore. And I actually felt myself pulled more towards the topic of work in general and how it's impacting all of us across industry. So that's sort of how we ended up in that space. And actually it's proven to be a very rich source of content and information, as you can imagine. So it gets us excited. Yeah, and the way Alice describes it obviously makes it sound like it was, you know, one of those moments. I think we both knew we wanted to do a podcast. I think I defaulted to marketing because I've done, you know, I've been a marketer for nearly 20 years, but I'd just taken the leap out of corporate life into freelance consultancy startup, whatever you want to call it. So was almost like I went, we'll have to do marketing podcasts because that's what I've been doing for nearly 20 years. And then I was like, oh, hang on, maybe I should do like a... it should be more on like starting up a business. I think one of the first names was called Starting Up and then it explore lots of different topics. it's, it's yeah, because it was where I was currently going for all of my information of how to create your own business from literally like what rubber stamp you have to get, you know, like all like the basics. And then when we had a really big brainstorm over time, we were like, is it around pivoting? But pivoting was a very 2024 term. And then Alice doing the magical thing that she does with words in real. impactful layman's terms work is weird now we were like that's it that's that's it thing. like, said blame it on marketing. We're like, Oh, yep. That's the one. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. You just know, don't you? Yeah. And all marketers must so resonate with that because you just like, my God, I've had that backhanded at me so many times. another episode but not always. m shrink back into themselves and they're like, no, no, we cannot be talking about negative things at work. no, no. So that also happens. Or they're like, yeah, totally get it. Like this makes so much sense. We've learned that through in-person events and it's fun to see what reactions people have when you're like, we do this thing called blame and marketing. They're like, ooh, yeah, back up. Um, so yeah, yeah, yeah, everything's fine. Everything is fine because work is weird now. Um, so before we jump into the main topic of the episode of how are we managing, let's do our traditional confessions. So if we could please have one confession each of your deepest darkest marketing slash work, fuck up thing that happened. You know, what, what comes to mind when I say that? For me, it's actually I'm glad that you're asking this because I feel like I need to get this off my chest. So yeah, I think, you know, I haven't worked for a company in, gosh, 15 years now. I left and set up my own that long ago. But before I left, I ran a team. And I have to say, like in hindsight, I was a terrible manager. I really was like, think, you know, I think if I went back into a company now, I would be much better, right? So I've learned a lot about mentorship. I've become more self-assured in myself over time, as you can imagine. And so I think now I'd be much better at it. But back then, think I was just, you you don't give any, you're not given much formal training. It didn't come naturally to me. I'm a bit of an introvert. I'm not necessarily great with people sort of off the cuff. And so yeah, I think I was really bad. So I just want to sort of apologize to all the people that I ever managed for being such a bad manager. I'm sure it wasn't that bad and two, it's the classic of like, you're good at your job. Here's a bunch of people for you to manage and it's like, those things are not equivalent at all. Thank you. not, no. shame on the company that didn't give you any support. Exactly. that was pretty common back then. Probably still is. If we're going for therapy, I've got several. m I'll say my first one. I married my Christmas party snog. That was a work confession, I suppose, but I don't think it's that new. I think we've definitely spoken about marrying people from work before. yeah. No. No. I had to be fair. I'd only met him like once or twice and the whole time I'd been at that company. I am now. He's not here, so we definitely got to challenge that one. So no, was not a line, it wasn't a line manager at Ragewood, but yeah, I thought that was quite a fun one. I am a marketer by accident in a way that I failed my A levels en route to being a vet. For some reason I wanted to be a vet, but needing 27 gazillion straight A stars or whatever it takes in, know, what is it, maths and physics and all that. realised that that wasn't my... my route and I remember I think it was the careers coach and the business studies teacher sat me down and was like you clearly have a strength, natural strength here because I got like an A in it without really, don't say without trying but it was just they're like this is the route that you should go to, you're naturally falling into it. yeah I'm kind of in this world by accident but very very glad that I am. I actually have a really similar thing. I wanted to be a dermatologist. I would still like to be a dermatologist, but you you have to do the whole medical everything. It's like 20 years until you actually get to do the thing you want to do. And I got an A in economics, literally just with normal amounts of revision and all the other shit was really hard. And I was like, I see. Okay. And then I ended up doing economics and then getting into tech. So yeah, I think we're all, think Emma, you're an accidental marketer too. Like you're not here on purpose. Definitely not here on purpose drama school kid slash English lit kids somehow worked in the charity sector every job I've ever done had marketing in it but never actually did a marketing job until Way later down the path. So yeah, but here we're all here by accident. Alice was yours deliberate No, I was a journalist. That's how I started out. Relatively close, yeah. It has served me well. Yeah. That was a really terrible confession then, I suppose, on my side. No, No, but it's good because it makes everybody realise, I think there's a lot of pressure on marketers at the moment, which we're obviously going to get into. And a lot of them feel like, am I missing out on something because I should have studied marketing? And yeah. on some random course? Probably not. Yeah. no. So let's get into it. Big question. What is happening with the world of work and how do you guys think it's impacting marketers in particular? big question. Big question. think big picture is that work is going through an incredibly transformative moment, probably, well, definitely the most transformative in our lifetimes. And it will, we will emerge from the next 10 years with everything looking completely different. So that obviously impacts all different kinds of professions, not just marketing, mostly driven by AI, but there were a number of other things that have accelerated this change. Obviously the COVID pandemic has completely changed. the way that work is now. And a number of different things have come out of that that are influencing how and where and that sort of thing, where people work. And so yeah, just generally work is transforming significantly. I think in terms of marketing, we're seeing a lot of skills expansion, right? if you've got, you're much less likely to be hired for a specific thing. Generalists are obviously much more popular in terms of marketing roles and things like that. Now and it's interesting because I've actually got a client right now where I'm there a there a startup charity Not my typical kind of client But they obviously are cash strapped which is how a lot of organizations are feeling right now in terms of investing in people and as a result I'm not just their brand strategist, which is what I would usually be but I'm also a person with chat GPT Canva blah blah blah blah doing the job of an entire department for them And I think this is what the reality is within organizations too, right? So people are looking for this one-stop shop of all the marketing skills within a single person who is usually not that senior. So maybe a kind of mid-level person who's not going to be super expensive. I think at the top end, we've got the length of time of CMO spending and role is diminishing, right? So businesses want ROI instantly, which is obviously really difficult to get when you are sitting in a big organization. And then we've got kind of remote working. So I know that often with marketers, they're stuck with the, I don't want to say stuck, but you, If you're the marketing team, often get given the role of also engaging the internal comms and culture, that sort of aspect. And given that people are so dispersed and everyone's working hybrid, that's more challenging than ever before. And not necessarily the skills that a marketing person would have around engagement, engagement of people who are remote working. And then finally, I think just because branding is my perspective, think, you know, managing brands right now is really difficult. I'm rapidly changing consumer patterns, lots of sort of instant feedback around. poor branding decisions, like ethical kind of branding decisions, things like that, that you have to respond to. You have to be both authentic, but you also have to rely on chat GPT. You have to somehow get the right balance between putting forth a kind of purpose driven brand, but also balancing that with sort of the need to be faster, scale bigger, in all these aspects as well. So it's this real challenge, I think, that we're having for all people, but particularly marketing people. Mm, to add to that, like work's never been weirder, I don't think. And if I just look at my own experience in the past five years, we've gone through, I joined a company and six weeks later lockdown hit the UK. So that was just bonkers. But thankfully in this situation, we didn't sack all the markets as they realized that we actually need to market in communications to come out the other side of it. And I think that's whenever the crash was in 2007, 2008, people learned from that. But it was obviously, know, bootstrapped budgets as much as you can with an in-house marketing team. And then was it 22? We had the great resignation and you couldn't hire anybody. I'm from like a marketing executive level. We had quite a few vacancies at the time and people going from round one to round two within a week, they were gone. They'd signed other roles. Grads were getting 40k fresh out of uni, right? bonkers and asking for it and getting it. was absolutely bonkers. Fast forward to last year, I just come back off my second mat leave, commuting full time from Brighton to London. was really, really difficult. And I remember crying on the phone to a recruiter who I knew very, well. She was just like, there's no roles, Dan. And I was like, really? She's like at senior level, there's few and far between, and they're a dedicated marketing recruitment agency. and it's square peg, square hole. So there was a role that I actually went for and they wouldn't accept me because I hadn't had the title director before. I'd been head of for eight, 10 years and I'd reported into CEO or CMO for that eight, 10 years. I can't get any higher. There is no marketing director above me. And I'm quite glad that happened. It was real experience because I think it's then made me look at it differently in terms of what am I striving for because the title means absolutely nothing in that sense. I just want to say that that square peg square whole thing carried on for quite some time for senior marketers. But then I think on the flip side of actually doing the do and implementing marketing, AI, you can see it from a doom perspective, like all the jobs are going to go yada yada. But actually, if we flip it and turn it to our advantage, that's not saying anything new. think we have to do that. But the whole... I think Daniel Priestley's really landed this in the sense that sales funnels dead, marketing funnels dead, but the marketing playground is very much alive. Thank God. Because I think marketers on the whole became so forensic with digital marketing and it was like, you know, X led to Y and this, this moved this person along, you know, half a millimeter along the funnel. And it all became so like, became too obsessed with it. And then the whole marketing lead, whose is whose. Going back to the macro point, people will make a buying choice when they want to, when they feel ready. Mm-hmm. You've just got to have all of the relevant content out there for them to consume to make that decision. The power is in their hands. And thank God we're away from that forensic stuff because we actually get to spend our time on being creative and building relationships with the sales team. So it's not us and them type, you know, is it marketing, is it sales, whatever. I just think, you know, it is strange. We've got to stay with the times and the tech and just remember what it is that marketers do rather than becoming data analysts. I mean, I love a little data analysis, I also think there was a, so I'm thinking like both in like COVID boom when all the stocks were like going crazy and everyone was buying everything and like 2018, 2019, I think we misunderstood why things are good. So we could micro analyze things and be like, Oh yeah, that made a difference. It was probably just because economy was in a good place and people were buying lots of things. It was less to do with the little experiments that we were doing and more to do with the general world and the sphere and our tech in the world and what it meant. So I think, it's a good point that... I think some companies are still super detailed and micro about stuff, but I do feel like we've had to pull back out and be like, well, okay, shit is weird. What do we do? We clearly can't keep doing what we were doing. We need to change something. And I think that has kind of re-centered. So you both kind of spoke about the seniority of marketers there. And Alice, you made a point around how companies want kind of slightly more junior, but... one-stop shop of everything and then Dan were talking about how it was actually really hard to get a role and I think it's the market's still not great in that. Do you think companies are going to be missing out on that senior not only marketing knowledge but like people and understanding and like life experience knowledge which I think marketing does bring to the table? Yes, and it means that they're missing a senior marketer at the table, at like senior level. Because you do need that wealth of experience. It's a blend of everything, but I experience brings knowing what to share at the table, but also having the tough chats at the table. also, I don't want to use the word defense here, but we do almost have to defend at times like... spend budget, time, all of those things, but also the knowledge base around don't just look at social media posts and think that it took 30 seconds to curate. There's things that we do need to really... Protect? Yeah. evidence. So, I know I've been mentioned before about the data. I'm not saying we don't need to look at data. Yeah, like we absolutely obviously need the data to get the buy-in. But there's also just, I think with experience and experience of being in those types of environments, you learn how to work the room, almost in that sense. And I'm not saying that people with less experience can't do it, but I've had the opportunity to learn from some brilliant seasoned marketers. who've given me time and space to actually learn that. I think it works two way for talent development up and coming and through the ranks, succession planning almost. But for me, we just can't forget that marketing and comms needs a place at the table for the future of businesses. Yeah, I think fundamentally we're talking about how human beings speak to human beings, right? And I think as long as that continues to be the case, as long as we need to appeal to the sort of emotional side of human beings, there needs to be some level of understanding of what that means in the room. And I think to Dan's point, I think this is something that a lot of people miss out on, especially in the hybrid work conversation, is that we know there's massive issues with loneliness, with mental health issues among young people. There's loads of people who are out of work of that kind of entry level age group. And I think we need to remember that we have a responsibility to other human beings in work, right? So I think there's a question, you know, this whole question around kind of hybrid work and especially when you get to be my age and the fact that you can probably do most of your work from home. We all know that now COVID showed us that. But I do think that as senior people within organizations, we have a responsibility to younger people to be those mentors that we received. And a lot of that can't be done, you virtually, it has to be done in person, you know, that human interaction is absolutely vital to our well being as human beings. So I think even just on that basic level, there is a need for older people, people with greater knowledge, people with a deeper human understanding of that aspect of marketing, need to be in the same rooms as people who are coming up through the profession. It can't just be about digital skills and who's acquiring them fastest. There has to be some element of that as well. Whether or not companies see that or see the value of that, guess, remains to be seen or is in question. Because certainly there are people who are older in their marketing careers who are not employed either. So clearly they're not. And they're not able to find those roles as easily. So I don't know. mean, it just feels to me like we have to start in this entire wide conversation around the future of work, need to start thinking about what it actually means to be a responsible worker in the world of work for other human beings. Yeah. It's that like operating with integrity thing that I think it's interesting. So Ruta and I quite often work with B2B tech startups and you know, it's all like, we've got to go as fast as we can because we need to our growth numbers because we're VC backed or we want to be VC backed. So we need to hit our growth numbers. But then what does come with that is. Yeah, forgetting that, you know, you've got people, there are people who are doing the job, who are helping you hit those numbers, that helping you hit those growth targets and you're not either developing them or you're not fully understanding the kind of world that they operate in. You know, it's like they are, they are the kind of classic companies that hire these sort of like mid to junior level marketers and expect them to do everything. And then wonder why we're not seeing the sales. target, you we're not hitting the sales targets, but they haven't actually invested in at the top. And I think to the point about what a senior marketer brings to the table, that's different to say like your CRO or your whoever, you know, your senior salesperson is that horizon scanning that those people don't necessarily have because we are trying to market to most of the time, the 95 % who are not in market right now. We have this really good understanding of like what's happening, happening in the economy, what's happening within other businesses that are selling the same products as us or services. And then also what's actually happening with the audience because, you know, I think that is missing from that, you know, if you don't have that senior marketer in house, who is the person that's doing that? And someone actually said to me the other day, well, isn't that the CEO? And I went, yeah, if you've got a good CEO, you know, and the CEO isn't wrapped up in, know, protecting their baby and trying to grow it as fast as possible without thinking about some of the consequences, which is what you quite often find in startups. So it would be, I think it is a real shame that we've seen the number of senior marketing positions dwindle and that it's so hard for people. And then the other thing that we see, keep seeing that happens is that they're, you know, like they won't hire someone who's been a director into a head-of-role, but there's nothing else other than head-of-roles. So where does that leave everybody? It's a, it's a big, It's a big mess. And I think it has got worse this year from what we've seen online, what we see people comment on our community. It's, yeah. the job specs are getting out of control. 45K, you're going to be a director, but you have no team and you have to know how to do everything. And it's like... you're a CMO and all you've got is equity. Great, but we don't know if this company's gonna work, so terrific. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for that. it's like work is becoming for people that can afford not to work in a way, you know, like that's a bizarre concept to think about when it comes to salary and like. yeah, I hate to harp on my age so much, but it is something that we hear a lot is kind of this sort of when you get once you get to 50, you basically can't get a job. Now there's so much ageism in the market. And it's really alarming, I think. And it's alarming for me, even though I probably only need to work for another, well, probably a really long time, actually. But, you know, theoretically, I'm not supposed to work for much longer than the next sort of 15 to 20 years. And so I'm kind of thinking right now, I just need to white knuckle it. I just need to get through this incredibly tumultuous seismic shift in work that's happening. But I only have to do it for that long. It's the younger people that I actually worry more about. What does it start to look like? My kids, maybe things will have shifted enough by that point, by the time they get into the workforce, that there's a little more clarity around what paths they can take. But I really worry about the next, say, 20 years in terms of what people are actually going to do. Because you know, to your point, work is not something that can necessarily sustain us in its conventional fashion, because we're not going to go into an organization and work there for however long. And we're not going to be able to leave there after five years and go and find a similar job that's going to pay us a little bit more and give us a little bit of a promotion. So, you know, what is the answer? And I think for me, I'm kind of getting to the point where, for me, it looks like some kind of portfolio, right? So I need to have several different jobs on the go, whether that's partially what Dan's doing, which is working for a company as a head of marketing for few days a week and then also doing some bits on the side. Or for me, it's about I've got two businesses and I also have the podcast, which is generating a little bit of work in its own right. So it's like I have to constantly manage on all fronts just to hedge my bets, basically, which I think is what everyone's going to have to start doing is looking at ways to spread it. is absolutely it. Sorry, Dan. was just going to say very quickly that I've actually, because Ruta and I work quite a lot with HR tech companies. So we have a lot of contact with HR people and the amount of conversation from HR around having to have policies about the side hustle culture now. So before it was, cannot work, remember back in the day, my first job back in 2008, you cannot have another job if you work here. Whereas now it's like, no, no, no, you need to recognise that people kind of almost have to. And you're seeing like this increase in culture. mean, there's a whole Reddit forum where people will go and get jobs that don't require a lot of work full-time and then be doing another, a second full-time job at the same time. I mean, that is, that is not a world. That's not, you know, that's not the kind of world we want to be working in, right? I mean, there is something fun in it. There is, I think, you know, there is a sort of, the right personality, I think there's something fun in the opportunity to weave some of these things together, right? Because I certainly know, and I'm sure you guys feel the same, by virtue of doing the podcast, you are better consultants to your clients, right? Because you have a much wider view on the world, you understand more, you've, you know, all the things that podcasting can give you. And I think for me, it's the same, it's like, all three of the things that I spend my time doing benefit each other. And actually you can start to bring some clients onto the podcast. And so there's all these ways that you kind of create what I call this work quilt of sort of things that weave together and make the whole thing stronger. So yes, I mean, I'm trying to be optimistic here. It is not exactly what we wanted to do. And it's certainly not something I know how to advise my children to do except just to be really agile and be willing to pivot. But yeah, there's what it's going well. It's kind of fun. Yeah, I just going to say we're looking at the side hustle because there's so much around it. I think was it season one when we wrapped up Alice and we both sort of went, there's something here. This is more than more than just a podcast. And there's definitely a switch for people who are podcasting. I'm sure you felt the same that it's more than it can be. Can be so much more than. But then we've by the end of season two, which we're just approaching, we've almost in a very quick, short phase of time, realized that, this is it. now, because we're not going to go to a company or an office, you and be there for 20, 30, 40 years. It's not the way the world works. We don't really know what the future looks like because it is still so rocky. So I think you've just got to go back to that creativity piece. You have to be creative, have to not leave any stones unturned and just see what, you know, figure out what feels right and but knowing your own boundaries in that, because I think it's very, very easy to become consumed. We live in an always on culture. And if you don't know your own boundaries and how to protect yourself and time, that can, I you can get absorbed by it and become quite, you know, quite scary, like burnt out stats, all of those things. I think that can, you've just got to be very, very aware of those things. So it's not a perfect ideal environment, but I have to say, I feel really energized by it at the moment. Now I've been terrified. I think I left corporate world fully, the full-time role, last November and there were some dark, desolate times of, hello, is there anyone out there? And I think you have to go through that to then realise when work does land and you're almost too busy, you're like, okay, but being busy is better than being, you know, silenced and ghosted. But it's just, it's constantly changing. And I don't think, I don't think that roller coaster of change at the moment is going to go anywhere for a while. And it is difficult for younger people because the stability is gone, You know, I, you know, as someone who's like, I'm in my late thirties, I rent, you know, all those sorts of things, the stability of like owning your own home and being able to pay your bills. And then like you say, Dan, when it goes quiet as a consultant, you're like, God. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and so I think it's like that cross between, and I agree with you both. find it fun. and I talk about this all the time that we're like, could not go back to in-house. Love it. We've been doing it for like, we've both been doing it for about four years now. Absolutely love working for ourselves. Love doing this obviously. and yeah, so the idea of working for a company and having that rigid fixed, like working style just wouldn't suit us now, but also that does come with this. other aspect to it, which is this kind of roller coaster in the stress of, of their not being the clients sometimes and all of that kind of stuff. So it's difficult. Yeah. feminism, Feminism existed to give women choices. And I'm scared that we are losing work choices and that everyone's gonna have to hustle. Everyone's gonna have to have multiple jobs if they actually want to make something of themselves. that's what kind of saddens me. If you're into that and you wanna do that, cool. if you just wanted to work your night five and be a corporate girly and go home and not think about work, like I wish that for you too, like, but it seems to be less of a choice now as we're proceeding, but maybe, I don't know, something will change in your sweet background. No clue. this is a can of worms, obviously, but I think we're, as we move away from the optionality around nine to five jobs, there will be some other solution, right? We will have universal basic income or the government at some point will have to step in and support people or give them an opportunity to be supported through whatever kind of structure they will end up building to support this very new, different economy that we have. But I also think, you know, we, we adhere to this idea that work before all of this change was right and good, right? And I think in many ways, this is our opportunity to challenge some of the things that are broken with work and have been since the industrial revolution. Like, why do we work nine to five, five days a week? know, and why all these things that sort of make sense, right? And so. Just a quick pause. Has anyone ever had a contract that has said nine to five? Have yeah. Especially like charity sector, like charity sector days, very strict contracts. I don't think I've ever had, I've never had a nine to five, they've all been like half eight, half five, I think, I don't know if that's just me, I know I may have to go and, yeah. to five. quite hard as well. Like I'm to, to, to have any flexibility at work at all. Like that's always been, especially before start, like going into tech startups, obviously that they generally tend to be a bit more flexible, but yeah, the, the old public sector, charity sector, no chance chain to your desk. I used have people check that we'd scanned in and out at the same, at the right time. Like out and in and out of the office. was insane. it, I remember that, clocking in and clocking out, Why are you paying someone to do that? Like, honestly. Honestly! a circular economy. Everyone gets a job for everything and then everyone has a job right. So when we're thinking about our careers as marketers and figuring out what we're doing, can we best balance how we want to work and what's good for us and what's going to help us develop and enrich our careers and lives and also what our company needs and the people that we work for need. It's a really tough one. think, you know, the neat, I remember very clearly one of my biggest work life lessons was when I was in my early twenties and I lived with a girl who was a management consultant had just come out of university and been hired by a big managing consulting firm, which basically, and I don't know if it's still the same today, it was all about just exploiting young people, you know, making them work. basically 24 seven completely at the behest of the partner is sort of sitting around waiting for them to write an email so they could go home, you know, at two in the morning or whatever it was. And I remember she had a coworker who was the same age had gone into the same kind of trainee graduate program as she had. And this girl left at 8pm every night, like never. was no debate, she made that very clear from the very start. And my friend just resented this woman with every fiber of her being because she was like, why does she get to go home? You know, blah, blah, blah. Like she's, you know, why is she so special? Why do they all just let her go? And it's because this woman whose name I don't even remember, but is my hero, basically created this boundary from the very beginning. And I think, you know, that was years ago, but it's the same now, right? So we just have to be very clear from the start about what our expectations are and how we work. And people just have to live with that. And then we have the opportunity to prove ourselves that we can achieve and accomplish and do all the things that we're supposed to do in that time. And I think that hasn't changed, right? So even as the context has changed, the need for us to be very clear about what works for us and how best we work remains the same as it ever has been. And to add to that, so the role that I was in house at last year full time, for the, actually the whole time I think I had a team of gents zeds then this is not sweeping statement, but I'd say for the majority, they're very, very clear on their boundaries, on time working, know, time at for lunch, and they were absolutely entitled to that. I am the classic millennial, jump how high, I will jump higher. More work, great, like people please it, and I'm having to unpick all of those things. that I've just been throughout my whole career. I'm probably a bit life, but too deep for that. But you know, it's the way we are. I don't want to say I struggled with it, but it was a real, the shift change in people's approach to work, was almost admiration and a bit of shock, probably both. And I think that is great because I've been consumed by work too much previously. And it does make a difference, know, at the moment, I'm doing that from in my own, myself for like the pod and consultancy work, but it feels all right because, know, it's going back to that point of don't know where it's going. So we're just white knuckling it. But I think having boundaries for sure, you've got, you've absolutely got to. And then I think for marketers specifically, we've always had to fight to prove ourselves because perception is with a colouring in department, with a pen and logo department, with a set and fire to the budget department, you know, by the finance team, no matter what ilk, we've always had to fight at some point for our worth and our value. And there's still work to be done on that, I think, where we're still going through those iterations, because more types of marketing are coming to the table. And the other part of social media and life being portrayed through social media, it's perceived as effortless, right? So people's TikTok content and not that one TikTok yet, but reels and all of that stuff looks effortless. And Emma, you did a post on this. You did a video piece of video content and you were like, this took me X amount of that was eight hours or something. A whole day, right? To create a 30 second video. And sadly people see, because we just scroll, flick, flick, flick, flick, flick, all the way through it. You go, well that's... takes no time. So your job is perceived as easy or doesn't take a long time. So it's almost another layer of fight to get it through or to get support. So going back to that one person team environment, well, yeah, you're marketing, you do that. But know that actually there's a team of people behind that one piece of content. yeah, we're just continuing to do that repositioning piece and it then goes back to. How much do you spend time fighting versus working on the stuff that you need to work on? I think that's a forever, a forever balance we haven't figured out the silver bullet to yet. Yeah. And I think the thing is as well, I love the, when people talk about Gen Z being like, we want balance. I know we're the millennial people pleaser, right? We're like, what? But I think this, this actually, this is more of a work point than a marketing point. I think this is true for everybody, but I think you should know and have a level of understanding about kind of your employment contract and, you know, how the company does things like sets goals and how they do things like do their performance management and their appraisals and all that really boring stuff that you don't ever think about. But if a company's got that stuff right, there are natural boundaries in place and you can kind of follow those boundaries. Whereas if you do things like, let's say for example, your company does set like OKRs or whatever, and you don't follow that structure, and then you're trying to put boundaries in place for yourself, well that kind of... intention, it creates a friction that's not there and then your manager thinks you're a dick, know, for asking to leave early. Whereas if you kind of play within the rules, I think you're in quite good, I think that puts you in quite a good position. But obviously I know that's also relying on the company having those things in place, lots of them don't. Marketing can be the champion of some of that stuff, because things like setting clear goals and... having, if you're a manager setting, check-ins with your employees, all those sorts of things, having good conversations about your employees' wellbeing are things that you can do without your company saying you have to, but it's obviously better if they do. Yeah. say, if a company doesn't, then you have to do that yourself. And as marketers, we are measured. We may not be forensic data analysts, but we are measured because we are tracking things, right? Because we want to see things in the green and learn from it. And I just think my advice to anyone would be, who's not being managed properly, reverse manage it, reverse mentor it. Take it into your own hands. like, this is what I'm going to do. Because then you know, you can almost set it out yourself. this keeps coming up in every conversation that we have for the podcast. I think one of the most important skills that people can have in the workforce right now is knowing yourself and your own skills and capabilities. I think before now we've gone through education systems and careers that have not forced us to know ourselves is only really forced us to conform to what's happening, right. And I think it's so vital in this day and age to understand what you're good at. what, how best you work, all of these things, because in an environment that has no structure, where there's so much uncertainty, you have to be able to advocate for yourself and you have to be able to prove that you can do the work that you say you can do. And you can only really do that if you have a really strong understanding of how good you are and in what context you're at your best and what you can offer that's different from other people. And I think that is just the personal brand aspect is so essential right now. So, We've talked about how it needs to be taught in schools. Kids need to come out of schools knowing what they're really good at. I would say they're not right now. They're only knowing whether or not they're good at getting certain scores on exams, exactly. But this is just, for me, this is like the number one thing for marketers or anybody in the workforce right now. Just know yourself and what you're good at and your strengths. And know what you're not, because you can play to both. It's OK to be like, I'm terrible at this. Kind of like the roles we talking about at the beginning of podcasting, right? The idea of editing and all of that stuff, it infuriates me. My brain just doesn't process that stuff. But I'm really good at organization and outreach and planning. So you just play. Know what you're good at and know what you're not. if you're struggling, have a coaching session on it. Holly Hobbs, she's one of our guests. She's 22. And she was like, I've been lucky enough to invest in a personal coach and a business coach and a mindset coach because that's all the stuff I needed from school that I didn't get. And it's what is helping me at this point in my career. Now, appreciate it's a luxury to some, use your network, you know, start, start there. So one question that strikes in my mind, we did an episode quite a long time ago actually with an occupational psychologist. And we were talking about like, is the role of marketing kind of set up to fail? It was very deep and meta. But one of the things that always makes me think about that, because we want to focus on the creative stuff and we do have a slightly different job in some respects to other people within businesses. Do you think that kind of means that we should get a pass? when it comes to, let's say even just requesting how and when or where we work or are we being too demanding? What do you think? honestly, in terms of like where we I still can't believe we're having this conversation, not us four, but just in the outside world, like, should we still be offering flexible working? I'm like, honestly, yes, like, we've all been in offices where you can't do work because of the footfall. And it takes planning the type of work that you do if you go into an office to do that collaboration, have that FaceTime, do all of that stuff. can't just be chained to our desk typing to be seen to be working. I'm sad that we're still there, but I truly believe we need connection and in-person connection to build all of those things and to help support upcoming generations to help train on the job learning, all of that. But I think it goes back to our discussion earlier, we need choice, we want choice. And we've got to be able to choose where we... do that because there's some things that take real focused dedication time when an office is just not the place to do it if it doesn't have the right setup. No, not gonna be any disagreement on that point. It's shocking to see how many like big corps are going back to the office. And to me, it all boils down to a trust issue. If you don't trust your people to be working and to getting their job done, and if you're not measuring them in a way that you can check whether they have completed what they need to complete, then you shouldn't be hiring these people in the first place. Like there's a wider issue here than them coming into the office. You're clearly hiring people that you don't trust to do their work, whether it's like this is an institutionalized feeling. And that's how, you know, all the managers and all the seniors feel or whether it's something else, it's just like, what's the point if you can't trust someone to work? Like, I don't get it. slightly more cynical view on this is that, you know, in most cases, companies have leased offices for a certain number of years, right? And that's really the driving reason. So it's not even necessarily about trust or about their people or about culture or anything. It's just like we need to get bodies in this place to justify the existence of it. But I think then it's really on companies to be transparent about that and just to share that that's the reason why they're doing it. So it's not so much seen as a opportunity to resent the kind of structure and lack of choice that you have. Mm-hmm. an even more cynical version of the entirety of huge real estate and commercials and that collapsing because of the lack of offices, blah, blah, But we're not gonna get into economics, economic conspiracy. It's not a conspiracy, it's just, yeah, economics. So ladies, we're going to the end of the episode. So at this point, we love to talk about some marketing gossip. So we love if there's something you hate or love that you want to share with us. We want to get into it. Who wants to go first? Well, I have been captivated by the announcement of the Google VO version, which I don't know if you guys have seen this week, but Google's come out with this new version of its AI video making system. It hasn't been released in the UK yet, but it is in the US. And so people have been going in and creating these videos from prompts, which are so... realistic, you actually really can't tell if they're, yeah, it's wild, right? But I think what's interesting about it is it really begs the question around what we are willing as audiences to tolerate. And I think to some extent for the corporate video of which I've done thousands in my career, maybe that is the perfect kind of channel because you can tell stories in ways and for budgets that you wouldn't be able to otherwise, which is really exciting. But then, you know, where is that line and what are we willing to put up with? And I think what's interesting is actually we we're willing to put up with quite a lot of AI. We're willing to put up with a lot of AI therapy. We're willing to put up with a lot of AI physicians. I mean, there was just a study that came out that people prefer AI only than to actual doctors or doctors mixed with AI. So like there are many things that we would think we wouldn't accept AI for that we're very willing to accept it. So I think it will just be interesting to see how things like these new marketing tools or new creative tools will be received. I think they're probably when people say just sort of blanket, we're always going to need people for that or it doesn't feel authentic, I think that we need to question some of those things because there's quite a lot that we're willing to take, you Yeah, I watched the YouTube video and some of the images, it was like a historical video, and some of the images that they were displaying had a little thing in the corner saying like AI generated depiction. And I was like, okay, that's cool. But like, for me, the bit is like, I don't want to have to look for the fact that it is AI generated, especially if we were dealing with like, you know, this is a picture of back in the day, what things used to look like, and it turns out it's AI generated. So I think disclosure is like, gonna get around most people's itch as long as you know. Maybe the idea is that you don't know, but for me, like I would prefer to know, cause I'm okay if something looks really good, but it's AI, but I would rather know that is so I don't put it into like my bank of facts in my head of this is what this thing is, you know? Like that's the bit I don't like. it's weird. It reminds me of that psychological experiment that people do where they show your picture that's got you photoshopped into it they say this is you as a child and the amount of people that go yeah that's me I remember that and it's just a complete fake. um I just I and this is because I'm a drama English lit girly but I don't want it to kill art. because I don't, because there is beauty in art and human experience and language and whatever route that goes down, I'm okay with it. But yeah, I don't want it to kill that because that's what sets us apart from everything else. drama in the art world. There's people entering contests with 100%. Yeah. Art generated by AI and art critics are like giving them awards for it and having no freaking clue, but like it's obviously AI. yeah, it's yeah. Dan? But just on that point, I was walking through Brighton on the weekend with my four year old. And I don't know if it's just because I'm hyper aware of AI, but the amount of people I heard just in their day to day Saturday afternoon conversation talking about AI, there was at least three or four. I was like, oh, oh, and another one. yeah, it's becoming really normal. And I had another really interesting fact that I was trying to create an image and I'm not graphic designer by any means. I couldn't make it work because we cut somebody's shoulder off. our graphics, he was like, oh, I just have AI on my shoulder. And I was like, oh, OK, OK. Yeah, right, great, great. And it's just a real, just part of our language now. But I think what am I loving at the moment? I am loving the abundance of knowledge out there. I just think like podcasting and all of that. everything brings knowledge and there's stuff there to learn, you just got to find it and if you've got that curious mindset and you're okay with, no, Ben, don't want that and really enjoying this and just kind of like foraging almost for stuff that you want to learn and having that confidence to test and learn it and don't worry about it if it doesn't work, like just test and learn, no, great, it's not a failure, it's your, you know, as marketers that we've got to keep doing that and I'm... I'm really enjoying the amount of knowledge that's out there. And I don't think that's because I'm starting my own business. We're in season three of a podcast, but I'm also using it in-house at the company at the moment. I'm the only marketer. So it's just, you you've got to use these things to like propel things forward. So yeah, I'm enjoying that. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Well, thank you both so much for coming on to Blame It On Marketing. There will be a sister episode on Work Is Weird Now. So yeah, go check out the podcast if you enjoy talking about, you know, people and how they work and... the environment around that, not necessarily just marketing, it'll be right up your street. And again, ladies, thank you so much and we will see you all very soon.