Slay your Board Meeting | E87 with Chris Kelly

Why do so many marketers break into a cold sweat at the mere mention of “board meeting”? 🤔 We’ve all been there—calendar invites arrive, you scramble through slide decks, and suddenly your palms are slick with nerves…

In this episode, we’re joined by Chris Kelly, Head of Marketing, to unpack the marketer’s boardroom debut—how to earn that seat, craft the right story, and walk out with the board singing your praises blame-it-on-marketing_f….

We get into:
 ✅ Why only commercially minded marketers should elbow their way in (and how to know if it’s your moment)
 ✅ Networking tactics that turn casual hallway chats into boardroom invitations
 ✅ Crafting slides that follow your narrative—story first, data second, and a dash of creative flair
 ✅ The board’s must-know metrics (cost per lead, brand awareness lift) vs. vanity numbers you can ditch
 ✅ Surviving the toughest questions: AI tools for mining potential Q&A and rehearsal hacks
 ✅ Rehearsal rituals—record yourself, get feedback, and build unshakeable confidence
 ✅ Showcasing your team’s wins to build internal advocates (and succession backups)
 ✅ Post-meeting power plays: following up on board queries to cement your credibility

If you’re tired of sweating over last-minute decks—or you’ve been knocking on the boardroom door with no answer—this one’s for you.

Transcript

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welcome to another episode of Blame It On Marketing. We are going to be talking about prepping for your first board meeting as a marketer. I'm Chris Kelly, I'm Head of Marketing at John D Wood, my role is kind of all things marketing I've been working in marketing for last 20 years or so. Why are marketers so desperate to be in the boardroom? I read the other day 92 % of the FTSE 100 companies don't have a marketer on the board, which yeah, it kind of surprised me as well. In order to get yourself into the boardroom, make yourself noticed. And I think all of this just comes back to understanding the types of questions that are gonna be asked to you. You know the CFO is probably not gonna be asking about the number of likes on Facebook or Instagram. He's not gonna care. Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Blame It On Marketing. We are going to be talking about prepping for your first board meeting as a marketer. thing we've done a lot of between Emma and I and it's always a little bit nerve-racking so we're really excited to talk about it and hopefully share some awesome tips with you. We're here with Chris Kelly and I will throw it over to Chris to have a little bit of an intro by himself. Well, hi guys. Thanks for having me on. I'm Chris Kelly, I'm Head of Marketing at John D Wood, one of the UK's oldest estate agents, 150 years old. And yes, my role at John D Wood is kind of all things marketing from brand, PR, content, all the way through to performance media channels. I've been working in marketing for last 20 years or so. I in media agency side and then kind of a various number of different roles from a digital perspective at Pizza Express, Crew Clothing and Foxton's. Do you still get free Pizza Express vouchers? Because that would be great. No, we never got free pizza express vouchers. No, this is is a myth when I first joined pizza express, It's based in Baker Street and they had a development kitchen and that was really quite special They had lots of dough balls were eaten, lots of margarita pizzas and they came in handy on a Thursday night or Friday morning. Yeah, that was super useful. Super useful. Great brand though. Yeah, great time there. Good start. So before we get into this, Chris, obviously you have earned your marketing stripes by the sound of things. So you will definitely, no doubt, have a deep, dark marketing confession that you can share with everybody. So please, please reveal all. Sure, I mean, anyone who doesn't have a bucket load of these in their back pocket is probably lying. Yeah, mine was, I worked for Which? the consumer association for a few years in the acquisition we had a partnership with John Lewis. and I managed that relationship with John Lewis. I was part of the affiliate and partnership team and we had an offer with John Lewis whereby if you took out a witch subscription for one pound, you got a 10 pound voucher for John Lewis. A deep offer, deep offer. And nothing really happened with the offer. The offer went live on Monday and nothing happened with it. So a bit of an uptick, but not much. And to all of a sudden, I came in over the weekend and I saw on Hot UK Deals, this offer got put on UK deals at about 6pm on Friday night which was really nice. So over the weekend there was lots of flurry of activity regarding this offer and we came in on Monday and record numbers of new trials taking out but obviously with any subscription business it's all about what the next month looks like and so our conversion rate took quite a big quite a big beating. So I really wasn't flavor of the month with our fellow marketing teams, CRM teams, analytics teams, our chief marketing officer. that's fine. like how many signups you got? Oof, okay. So not only was it thousands of new signups, it's 10 pounds per signup as well. Oof, okay. I mean, we were fortunate that it was still a target audience that we wanted to attract. So we are talking about preparing for your first board meeting, but let's kind of step one back from that. Why are marketers quite often, not going to say all the time, but quite often, so desperate to be in the boardroom? And should we even be there in the first place? Yeah, it's a it's a good question. I read the other day 92 % of the FTSE 100 companies don't have a marketer on the board, which yeah, it kind of surprised me as well. Surprised me. Look, I'm I'm I'm quite fortunate that I've I've got an MD. who really values marketing. So I'm there, which is good. But I've worked for many a business where that hasn't been the case. And I think that kind of headline stat highlights that. I think why are there so many marketers desperate to be in the boardroom? I think it's probably to work out, I think the shape of marketing and the kind senior marketers have evolved over the last. kind of 15, 20 years or so every kind of senior marketer I've ever worked for has been the one that's been the most commercial. I think the language of the boardroom is very much a, um, is a finance one. It's a trading one and And I think those marketers who are more commercially focused kind of want to be there because I think they can add value. And that's why I think there's a kind of a desperate need to be in there. So I would say kind of understanding what type of marketer you are, I think is a good point. mean, If you are a creative marketer and doesn't like getting involved in kind of growth of business or commercial challenges or trade performances, then it's okay. The boardroom might not be for you, but I'm finding that more and more of the people I work with and the marketers I engage with want to be there because They understand the levers to help grow a business. And there's a perception of marketing that has changed over the last few years in terms of shifting, shifting the focus from marketing being a cost to being an investment. And they can be a huge part of the growth strategy. So I think that's why marketers are desperate to be in there because I think they can add value. But I think you need to understand what marketer you are before you do that. think the other thing that we talk about a lot on the podcast, Chris, and I'm sure you sort of hear this as well, is that it is still really difficult, even if you are a commercially minded marketer and you're in that camp where you feel like you should be in the boardroom, is that you feel like you're still not necessarily, know, marketing as a profession isn't necessarily taken as seriously. And the only way that you feel like you can kind of affect any kind of change or perception of marketing is to be in the room. and I, I, I certainly feel that I certainly feel that way. I would absolutely elbow be elbowing my way into the room because I need the people around me to understand that not only do I understand how to grow the business, but I get the economic challenges that we face. You know, we kind of like, someone said it to me once we're horizon scanners, which I don't know that every, you know, SLT member is. I don't know, Ruta, if you would agree with that, but I certainly think that's the way that you affect change for marketing is to be in the room. Yeah, I think the comment Chris made about it depends on what kind of marketer you are is really kind of the key here. If you're going to go into the boardroom and show them your beautiful new adverts that you're going to have on Google and that kind of thing, like that's, it's going to be a hard, a hard re-invite back to another meeting. But If you're coming in and you've aligned with sales, then you know how much you need to generate for sales to be successful and all of those things. And it's a very natural process of like, okay, if we're looking at sales and customer success and product, then we need to be looking at marketing because that's like the beginning of that chain, right? So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Whilst you guys were talking, I was doing a quick Google on who's in the FTSE 100. And I was like, maybe it's all like mining companies, know, like stuff that wouldn't necessarily need a marketer. No, no, it's lots of huge retail brands. So they definitely have marketing. It's not an industry problem. And yet those, those types of businesses rely so heavily on marketing. So it is really shocking to discover that they're not in the room. That's beyond shit. So next problem. So you, you want to be in the room, you're desperate to be in the room, but you're not invited. So I guess Chris, how would you start to go about getting yourself invited into the boardroom if you're not already on the roster? a few things here like I say kind of I'm lucky that I'm in there so that's that's good but what I would try and do is make myself more visible look if you if you if you're doing good work then we should be talking about it and I think I think marketers are And it's something I struggled with for a long time is we work in marketing and we promote our brands that we work for and we all do a good job of them. We all work really hard doing that, but we probably don't spend enough time promoting our own brand and our own work. And therefore people in marketing should be a bit more proud of what they're doing. So what I'm coming to is In order to get yourself into the boardroom, make yourself noticed. Share good news stories, share kind of fun activity that your team has been doing. Celebrate success. Have those moments where I deliberately try and ring up various directors around the business just to get their view on... sort of a type of marketing or just gain their thoughts on something. But it's just kind of having those regular touch points with those senior leaders, just gauging their thoughts and a tip with that is you Everyone likes to have their massage, their ego massaged. know, asking someone for their thoughts on something kind of really, really helps. I'm glad I've got you. I'm keen to get your thoughts on this. Doesn't matter whether you're 20 or whether you're 80, you want someone to have that values your opinion. So yeah, I often do that just to try and... make sure that people are kind of remembering the work that we're doing and it also helps you engage with the other senior leaders as well because that's a key part because the senior leaders in the business do talk to each other obviously and there's lots of communication that goes on thinking what do you think of those guys at the moment and there's some really good work coming out of that department at the moment maybe we should do that yeah and those conversations are generally good conversations but that's kind what I'll try and do. I'd also say that it is also a scary place as well. So again, back to the point of how do you get yourself into the boardroom? of remember if you want to be there. I I just presented to the company conference of 350 people or so. Don't mind that. That's fine. I'd much prefer doing that rather than presenting to 10 people in a boardroom. That's an intimidating place if you're not ready for it. But would say build your network internally would help. Share success. And that should get you into the boardroom. Takes time though. It does. Any tips, Ruta? when Ruta and I worked in house, Ruta kind of, she worked her way up the ladder and then she was in the room, right? But obviously you went from not going into the boardroom, into the boardroom. Any? Any tips from that experience? So my first board meeting, that actually was like eight days into me getting the job. because they were excited about marketing and they were like, what's she gonna do? So I had to go and like explain what I was gonna do, but I had no idea what I was gonna do. And I wasn't even like, I had a marketing, I was just like a senior marketing person. But getting that exposure really early on was quite nice because I got to meet everyone. And I realized that, you know, the normal human beings, they're quite lovely. So that was really helpful. And then I used to do like, I used to appear maybe once a quarter. until I became head of marketing and I used to do every board meeting. I think for me, getting into the boardroom, I didn't have to like fight over too much. Like if I had something significant to talk about, then I could go in. But I think if you are struggling and you're not maybe, you know, maybe you're in a larger organization and that's just not something that you normally do, I think I would come up with something that you want from the board. Mm. Thanks think one part of a board meeting is just presenting stuff and saying what you've done, but the really useful part of a board meeting, which I talk about all the time, is actually asking for input and help and assistance. So if you're working on something and you need assistance from the board because maybe your team doesn't have a particular expertise or there's some partnerships you want to do or there's somebody on the board that you know has the knowledge about this thing, going to whoever it is that could invite you to the board, whether it's your boss or your boss's boss or whatever it is and be like, hey, I really need help with this thing. I would love to come and ask if that's all right with you. And I can like talk everyone through and that kind of thing. I think that's a good way to potentially start getting that exposure. So Emma, have you? Since you've started consulting, I feel like you've been in lots of board meetings, because that's kind of part of of the shtick. But have you ever had to like be like, no, no, I should come and present at the board meeting. Don't just take my slides and talk about them. I not since I've been a consultant, but in a previous life. and this is not even, this is, this was not even for marketing reasons. This was for other, other things, but to go into a board meeting where there was a lot of board members, because this was at an NGO and the boardroom was full of about 40 people and they're all CEOs of the biggest, NGOs, you know, there's W H O U N people in the room. It's like, And then stick your hand up and say, we need something and we need you to sign off on this thing. Absolutely terrifying. And I just remember before going in, it's the only time I think I can really remember doing this in my career, which says a lot maybe, is rehearsing what I was going to say, what I was going to say and making sure that I was going to do what I needed them to approve justice. Like I was going to... really try and articulate my points well. And so yeah, I rehearsed, I made sure my slides were clear, you know, all those kinds of things that you do in marketing that you might take for granted. But it's like, if you get that opportunity, obviously you feel like there's a lot of pressure, especially if it's the first time. But yeah, just go back to the core principles of marketing. Who are your audience in front of you? Is your message clear? Are they clear? you know, are you... Do you feel prepared? And if somebody asks you a difficult question, are you prepared to kind of handle it? Have you kind of got your rebuttals down and all that kind of stuff? And that's not to put pressure on you, but you can obviously rehearse that with people in your team, your boyfriend, your girlfriend, your mum, whoever. I'm a big advocate of recording my presentations as well. And yeah, record myself and listen to myself back. It's fairly painful the first few times, but it definitely helps. Definitely helps. So, okay, so you've now been invited in. How would you, obviously we've talked a bit there about prepping. We've talked about rehearsing and getting clear on your slides and stuff. Is there anything else you would add, Chris, in terms of prep? I would try and gauge the mood of the boards about marketing, kind of, because you wouldn't have been the first person to go into the boardroom. So kind of what do they like? What are they dislike about marketing? Try and try and understand it from, from their perspective. Cause yeah, like you said, said before kind of marketing going into the boardroom, you're probably the only marketer in there, right? There'd be, there'd be ops, there'd be trading, there'd be finance, there'd be kind of your, you are, you are the lone ranger there really. So trying to get to, get a steer of what they're thinking is, is really important. So if you can get some minutes. from the last meeting, would be super helpful. But trying to gauge some feedback in terms of kind of how marketing has been presented previously would be super good. And I think all of this just comes back to understanding the types of questions that are gonna be asked to you. You know the CFO is gonna be asking a particular question. He's probably not gonna be asking about the number of likes on Facebook or Instagram. So be prepared with the answers that you think people are going to ask. And sometimes even prompt people, kind of those questions as well. Sometimes it's instead of waiting for the question, almost raise it yourself to say, look, we recognise this is a challenge and this is our response to it. So rather than being kind of waited for that question, that inevitable question that will come. lean into it and make sure that you've got an answer for it already and as you quite rightly mentioned, of prep that answer. It's really important, that is the hardest bit of being in the boardroom, is being able to think on your feet and answer in a concise way I think everyone gets hard questions and they won't know the answer and they have to figure out how to answer it of like, I'll get that to you later or whatever it is, think. guess the the marketing questions though, is that, you know, so often the answer is it depends and then you open yourself up to this kind of worms, right? Don't you? And it's like, I'm only saying that because it's true. thing I've been using recently, co-pilot has been fantastic for me during meetings. Fantastic. Some of the prompts are really amazing. Tell me all the unanswered questions in the meeting. Brilliant. That's fantastic. Yeah, it's really, really powerful. download it, get access to it and run your presentations through through copilot or even just any other AI tools to work out what questions might come back. It worked out quite nicely for me. That's really cool. also, think the other thing, so there's being prepped for the, some of the questions that you know that you can answer. And then there is also the, having the confidence to say, I don't know that yet. Or we are experimenting with that and to give people that answer, but to deliver it confidently. Practice saying. No, I don't know. And I will come back to you in as many ways, shapes and forms as you can, I think. Because you will have to say that at some point, because it's just inevitable. And I think the boardroom does need to be an honest place. I think it's a time where people have to see the whites in people's eyes and say, this is really good or this isn't very good and this needs to change. So you can't have any ambiguity in that room. Everyone needs to kind of be very aware of what the actions are and what the outputs are of that meeting. probably a good thing to gauge from them from the minutes like if you can get hold of past minutes because sometimes boardrooms aren't a honest place Honestly prepping. my only other bit of commentary was that it depends on, again, depends on what your board setup is like, but sometimes there will be quite a few non-ACSEC board members in there. So people that just kind of float into the business a couple of times a month and check in on it and... lot of the times they're paid and they have to seem like they're providing value and sometimes that comes across as asking really hard questions that are not necessarily hard because they need to be hard because they're really valuable, but they're hard because they need to sound clever and like they're adding value. So that will also happen. And again, if you get asked one of those questions, just say, I will follow up with you. And then chances are no one's even going to remember that happened when you do follow up or that they asked that because it was kind of like a bit of a showmanship question to make sure that people are like, yeah, they know their stuff, know, good question, good question. Yeah, the NEDs are usually the ones that ask the hard, ask the worst questions. And it is really different. I think that is the problem for marketers is that, like you rightly said, Chris, there are lots of people in the room who don't understand marketing and you can quite easily dig yourself a hole with the like, no, it depends. Let me get into the detail and just don't go there. Mm. Yeah. learn when someone's asked you a hard question to do the like, no, I'm going to, I'll come back to you. The other thing that is good, I think if you do have to do that is that you do come back to, I know Ruta is saying like they might not remember, You will show yourself to be the expert that you are if you do actually come back to people on the questions that they've asked, even if what they've asked is really hard or maybe slightly pointless. Like if you can come back to them and show them. then I feel like you're building kudos with that group because they're like, no, they were listening. They did, they did come back even if it was something ridiculous, like, I dunno, I've had some ridiculous requests before for things. post? Woo! My favorite question. what's your army action toy good question? Ooooo So, so speaking of knowing kind of what level of detail to get into when you're answering, let's talk about what kind of data and information you should be presenting. Yeah, tricky to navigate. Look, I think kind of the elephant in the room is you probably need to get on board with PowerPoint. Now that sounds a little bit boring and I'll probably come into a bit more detail, but beyond that, but I've seen, presenters struggle with PowerPoint. We've had it recently whereby the PowerPoint presentation is dictating what you're trying to say. Mm. people get flustered about the PowerPoint and this doesn't look very good and I'm trying to change this and and I have to stop people and say what are you trying to say? What's your story that you're trying to say? Write it down on a piece of paper and then the slides will follow. Unfortunately PowerPoint is going to have to be the way that you present it, unfortunately. Our SEO agency recently did did a 120 page document for us deck for us And they wrote a video or recorded himself do in a video kind of a 10 minute synopsis very good, very good. So if you do have a lot of slides that's okay, you can maybe send a kind of pre-read of that with a 10 minute snippet. thought was them. So I thought was particularly good, but I think importantly know your story, know what you want to say. And usually for me that's kind of split out into what the strategic roadmap is of what we're trying to deliver. So outlining what we are delivering. what we have delivered with a clear roadmap of each deliverables of when it's going to be delivered. Not only present short term. kind of plans, but also the long term vision as well. Because remember, kind of, don't, in a boardroom, we're not talking about tomorrow or Monday, we're talking about kind of three, five years down the line. So in order to get credibility, you have to start thinking a bit like that to say, right, this is what we're doing next month, but this is where we want to be at the end of 25. This is where we want to be at the end of 26. In terms of the data, that I would show, I think it's all of the key metrics. When I first started at John D. Wood, I made a point of aligning our business, aligning our marketing goals to our business goals. So therefore, when I'm in a boardroom, it is important metric for us, but I don't talk about engagement on Instagram. I don't talk about... I don't talk about followers on certain social channels. I'm not saying it's not important. Of course it is, but that's the marketing metric. And obviously if there's any big milestones and they will be flagged during those meetings. But it is about... two key things for us at John Deward. It's about increasing our brand awareness and increasing market appraisals and how we get and how that aligns to business performance. And that seems to have resonated really well for us. And my slides are fairly dull when it comes into the board pack, which I probably need to work on, but there's graphs and there's numbers and there's cost per acquisition, there's cost per lead. And this is the activity we're doing. But what I will say on that is I've probably gone too far down that route and we need to remember that we work in marketing. have some fun. Have some fun. of it's more often than not that marketing might be the funnest bit of the board pack, right? Depending on how good trading performance is, but it's... Often the most exciting bit whether you've got a new creative. Have you got some new videos you want to show? Whether you've got some concept work You want to show that's usually the the time to show it to to to? To gain some excitement and some fun. So yes, you you absolutely have to Demonstrate, know, you know your numbers and you know what's driving this business performance, but equally we need to understand that this is our time to showcase some of the fun work we do as well. And that can be from, yeah, anything from a creative perspective. Mm. Yeah. I think it's really nice actually to do. I would agree. think my board slides are on the boring side apart from because well, the numbers aren't boring. They're not boring to me. That's how I live and die by the numbers, Chris. I'm really sorry. but I do recognize that the thing that is missing and the thing that I would probably do maybe differently is what I'd quite like to do. mean, I also hate talking about the funnel and all that stuff because like, you know, whatever, but I think to help people understand why maybe you're doing some brand awareness and other other bits of content and how it all sits together to show some of the night, the good content or the good creative that you're producing against the funnel to show how it supports the conversion metrics maybe or velocity or whatever it might be metric wise that you're showing to really give people an understanding of like, why would we bother with a podcast? Well, that's because it sits up here. but it has a job in our processes and it supports some of that stuff. So yeah, maybe that's something that I would think about adding in the future, Ruta. Yeah. as well, kind of we work in a kind of a sales business and we want our employees to feel proud to work for, than they are, but it's difficult to make someone feel proud with an Excel spreadsheet. But if you've got a really fun creative, which pays off, I'm talking myself out of job. If you've got a nice fun piece of creative that might go on social or some other media channels, then there's a good chance that that's probably going to be seen by friends and families. I think you work for John Deward. yeah, I saw a nice bit of fun creative that you did the other week. And yeah, I work for them. It's a great business. And yeah, it kind of makes everyone feel good. I think the other thing, speaking of like employees and feeling good that doesn't make it into board slides enough in my experience is actually talking about employees other than yourself in the board meeting or like kind of talking about the marketing team. Well, why don't you highlight somebody in the marketing team that's done a really fantastic piece of work and that way you're kind of starting to build their profile. So maybe if you leave or if they become ahead of something when they get to the board meeting, it's going to be a nice and familiar time. for them instead of having to be like, who are you and what are you doing here? that's the other thing that I would add as much as you can in your slides, really pointing out people that are doing fantastic work. That's never gonna go down badly. Also, that's a really good point not to go off on a slight tangent, but I think if you're in marketing and you're the senior leader and you're in the boardroom, don't gatekeep your board relationships. Because I think that's one thing that a lot of people do do, which makes it harder for you to step into the room, which is the relationships are kind of kept and then the rest of the team don't have access, especially if you've got quite a big marketing team and maybe you're the CMO or director and you've got some heads off. Like get those people some exposure with the board. that they, when they, if they like, like you say, Ruta, if there's a succession plan or whatever, or again, if they go off and they get a new job and they become a director or whatever it might be, that they actually have some exposure to that world. Because I think that's really important. I had a, I had a director of marketing when I was ahead of who did that for me, who let me come into the room and talk all the numbers. And I've really appreciated it. I really appreciated that opportunity to get to know those people in the room and to build relationships with them. And she wasn't threatened and it was lovely. and if you're away or you're sick or something happens you also know somebody's gonna cover you and you've got you know you've got an emergency backup if you need one which is also fantastic because you don't want to be coming to the board meeting sniveling and blowing your nose and feeling like shit because you've got a cold you've got someone there for you You're right, it's all about empowerment, it? And job growth and get out of that comfy seat. before we wrap up for the episode, Chris, have you got any marketing gossip to share with us? Anything that you love, you hate? Just can't get out of your mind. lots lots that i hate i'll start with that of all maybe i should yeah okay let's start with let's start with i hate look this this might just be a personal thing lots of awards aren't there at the moment lots of awards um top 40 under 40 top 41 under 41 um i've just turned 40 so i think that might be why i'm kind of slightly slightly empty that one but yeah here's hope for the top 41 under 41 but I I think look anyone who applies to it fair play like good for you and we talk about personal branding a lot and um I just I just find it a little bit cringe to be honest how do they evaluate how good a marketer is? Like that, just can't. how good your pitches make me lost an award once for, I won't say the awards name, but the category was like best, like female, it was a female marketing award thing. And it was, and I put myself forward for it. And cause I was like, why the fuck not? And it was for like best female consultant. And I lost, I'm, I obviously am a fractional CMO. I lost out to somebody. who'd done like, who was a basically a freelance graphic designer. I was pissed, guys. I was pissed off. I was like... must have got a table presumably. They must have done. To say I was vexed is an understatement. We need to do an episode on on like business awards How have we not done an episode on business awards because they are the most crazy thing I think that exists in the B2B world Love it. Okay. What's something you love Chris? Well, look, I've kind of spoken already about how my kind of brain works when it comes to kind of marketing. So I look at those brands that embrace creativity and fun, but I don't particularly look at those brands that are disruptors. mean, there's so much creative work out there from disruptors. fantastic, quite a lot of gyms at the moment are doing some really cool stuff, kind of gym box and those kind of brands are super fun. But you know what, think that's, I'm not saying that's easy because it's really not to do that kind of creative and it's fantastic. But I think what's really hard is trying to have fun with your creative in a traditional industry. I think that's super hard because you have to convince, you have to convince again. And you have to, you have to try and get as many kind of stakeholders on board as possible. So there's a brand at the moment, it's a insurance brand called Hisox. I love some of their adverts where it's a, yeah, it's just an advert gone wrong. It's kind of a big, a big billboard with the advert being sort of this size. And I think it's It's really refreshing to see that in an industry where you wouldn't necessarily see that and I think that's really brave. but also do you not think there's an element of maybe like some people are waking up and going, no, our ICP is now this group of people who want this, this is what they want to see. You look at Monzo, Monzo do it really well, freaking hilarious. And it's like, know, they know who their ICP is and they're like, well, not really worried if we, if we alienate other people because we're really clear on the people that we want to attract. thank you so much, Chris. I hope for anybody who's listened to this episode, this is literally your breakdown how to guide to nail your first board meeting or subsequent board meetings. Um, and if, yeah, if you want to ask any of us, any questions, you can find us on LinkedIn. Chris, we don't know if you're a Redditor, but you're going to become one because we've moved the Blame Our Marketing community to Reddit. Um, so yeah, please come and join us. Let's have some anonymous horror stories about board meetings. We love it. thank you so much again, and we will see you soon.