MQL's are NOT DEAD | E80 with Ross Howard

How do you keep the spark alive with MQLs when everyone’s ready to call them dead? In this episode, Ruta and Emma sit down with Ross Howard, Product Marketing Director at Inbox Insight, to share a no-holds-barred conversation about the messy, hilarious, and sometimes maddening world of Marketing Qualified Leads. Rather than ditching MQLs altogether, our guest and hosts explore how a little relationship-building, a whole lot of content creativity, and a fresh look at aligning sales and marketing can make all the difference.

We dive into:

✅ The truth behind the “MQL myth” and why these leads aren’t the enemy
✅ How early marketing blunders (hello, email typos!) paved the way for smarter strategies
✅ Balancing lead gen and demand gen without sacrificing quality or your sanity
✅ Creative multi-touch tactics that keep your audience engaged long after the first email
✅ The secret sauce of building genuine connections, even when the system seems stacked against you
✅ Insider marketing gossip that proves even the pros have their off days

If you’re ready to rethink your lead strategy without scrapping everything you’ve built, this episode is your new go-to guide. Let’s embrace our MQLs for life—done right, they can be your secret weapon.

We’re Ruta and Emma, the marketing consultants behind Blame it on Marketing. 

If you’re in B2B SaaS or professional services and looking to do marketing that actually drives revenue and profit, we’re here for it.

Visit blameitonmarketing.com and let’s get this show on the road.

Transcript

0:00

hello everyone and welcome to another Blame On Marketing episode. We are gonna be talking about our infernal, eternal, ever burning love for MQLs with a lovely guest, Ross, but I will throw it over to Ross to introduce himself. Hi, everybody. I'm really happy to be on the show. My name's Ross Howard. I'm the Product Marketing Director at Inbox Insight. We are a demand generation services company and media owner that helps you identify your ICP, educate them with content, and then convert them to revenue. Thank you for joining us. We've actually used Inbox Insight at Clear Review way back when, so it was fun to circle background in a marketing rant capacity. I love it. Finding stumbling across a wild customer. That's what we like. exactly. You're like, oof, I don't know what to do with you. Did you like us? What happened? Yeah, exactly. Awesome. But before we get into our deep seated love of MQLs, Ross, tell us your deepest darkest marketing fuck. Like which one was my first reaction to that? I have done a few howlers, but the one that like is quite memorable and a bit funny, that early days, and I'm going back like 10 years or so, I was running an email marketing campaign promoting an asset around how to do email personalization. But I made a typo in the code in the subject line, where you can see where this is going. Yep. I put a space between the hash and the F in the first name personalization. So 43,000 recipients who were all other marketers got high first name, learn all about the importance of email personalization, which like the replies were savage and also quite funny. the irony was like half of them were like, this is embarrassing. And the other half thought it was like an in joke, like we'd sarcastically called it out. thought I was like, you know, the importance of not putting hi first name down. I quite like that. We've sort of styled it out in the end, but yeah, that one, we put a QA process in and people know to watch me when I'm on the tools now. So let's talk about MQLs. I feel like my intro was like 50 % sarcastic and 50 % not. MQLs get a lot of bad rap nowadays, especially on social. And I think they do because previously we've kind of defined them badly. Given shit leads to sales. And then obviously everyone hates the MQL, but like, it's not the MQL's fault. It's, know, how you deal with it. At least that's how I see it. So the reason why we kind of came up with this is because lots of people are advocating for ditching MQLs, which we, I don't think any of us think is the right kind of move right now, but what's the actual reality if you do want to ditch an MQL? How can companies just do that or not do that? Like what happens to their marketing process? So one of the things that I've been coming up against this question a lot in conversations with customers and at events when I'm speaking to people. And there tends to be these movements, right, which decry the death of an old tactic and then tell you that you need to move towards some sort of bright, halcyon, utopian future that is going to solve all your problems. And it normally means buying their sass, right? so I think there's an element of that in there. There's also, there is quite rightly, all of those challenges that you mentioned about pain points. You're handing it over to sales, they don't know what to do with it. There's disconnection in how they communicate with you. There's finger pointing and a blame game going on. And in order to avoid that, people have ended up jumping into sort of, I would say two camps. There's the ABM crew and then there's the demand generation, demand creation, I should say. people. So with ABM, it's a really logical thing to do. There are so many databases now, there's so much stuff available to us. What if we just call our shot, right, and go after the companies that we care about? The challenge in that is that not everybody's ready. And a lot of the conversation around ABM now over the years has moved from what is it should we do it? to maturity, how to do it, how to bring people with you. So if you look at the MQL as this dying art that shouldn't exist and instead we're just going to advertise to all these companies, you end up in a situation where sales doesn't know anybody at those companies and those companies might not be ready yet. So you're chucking a ton of resources and operational output into trying to land the whales that you're really interested in landing because they're good for you. but you're not really being buyer first and seeing which one of those are actually interested in talking to you. You're just focusing entirely on sales support output if you're doing it wrong. So that can be a real pain. The other side is that people just haven't done the maths in terms of what's your current run rate of deal flow that you're getting in at the moment, be it through MQLs that need a bit more time to nurture or landing these big accounts. How long does it take to land those accounts? If we put all of our emphasis into it, are there enough of this list that we've chosen to actually turn into pipeline at our first deal transaction value? Sometimes we get lists through and it's 25 companies, it's 50 companies, but their target is 18 million. That's a lot per company, guys. So you have to educate around what's greenfield to you, what's inbound that has intent in the market that's the same lookalike of this ICP, and broaden out, right? Because we're the even if you do ABM, still about 5 to 10 % of people that are actually willing to buy at any given moment, right? Even if it's ABM, like you're not gonna be then converting everyone. That's wild. also it's like i think one of the things that when people talk about abm one of the things that i see missing quite a lot from all of the people who are kind of waxing lyrical about it on on linkedin is the cost of acquisition. like abm is a long game. especially if you're going after bigger companies you know you're going to put a lot of upfront money into that. you're not going to see any roi for a really long time. and you know the cost of acquiring those companies and putting in the effort and the relationship building and all of that kind of stuff if you're doing it right is going to be really really high and most companies especially startups you can't actually afford to do that i think that's the you know and it's like and then you get into these really sticky conversations where people like let's do abm lite and i'm like yeah but that doesn't really work because it's just shit because it's not it's just normal marketing with maybe a little bit of personalisation thrown in for good measure or whatever. Or industry segmentation or whatever you want to do. Well, I was talking to somebody, was at propolis event in London a few weeks ago, and one of the questions in the Q &A portion was about how to bridge this gap between, okay, we've moved to MQ, we've moved from MQLs, or we're trying to diminish that and go to ABM. But essentially, they were being polite about it, but essentially, like sales aren't listening. So they weren't listening before when you were trying to set up this person's engaged with content. And now you're saying these people hit the website. This, the problem is not the signal pattern that's calling out marketing engagement. The problem is that, that you're not actually dealing with it. So ABM is, is sort of spoken of as a solution to sales and marketing alignment, but it's not the processes that solve that problem. It's the people that solve that problem. And so if you move into that, and you move away from high this director level contact at this place, engage with our stuff and we think they are beginning a buying journey and you move to this company in general did that process. You actually lose a lot of the traction that sales could have into that account and it makes it harder for you to talk to that salesperson about what to do or for them to find hooks into that organization. I've had a few times where People are asking, okay, well, how do you prove that ABM is working? How do you prove that the signals were followed up? How do you end up at you end up doing all of the same CRM hijinks that you do around MQLs for justification. You're just doing it for less trackable signals for a longer time horizon to hopefully land bigger deals. You've got to be really aligned in that process anyway. So I think that the, tangible nature of lead is still very valuable. And if you said that there was a salesperson, right, that turned around and said, I don't, I'm not going to be targeted on revenue anymore. I think it's old. I think the new thing in my world is not to be targeted on sales I bring in, it's to be the quality of the conversations. Like nobody would have that from a sales rep. If a finance function turned around and said, it's not actually about how many people I've invoiced. It's about enter finance metric here. So the fact that marketing can turn around and be like, I know the rest of the entire organization expects me to generate leads for this business, but actually, we don't do that anymore. Like, that's, that's essentially the reaction that, like, it's because these pundits that are sort of talking about ways of and means of working, are able to replace it with different tactics. They are, you know, in certain use cases. It's actually like check that your organization is ready for you to switch up your game and like try a new era because they, if those expectations aren't being met and you actually say, I'm just never going to meet them now. have a new way of working and it's led by you. You can backfire. we work with so many companies that still use the mql.. you know.. and still are.. you know.. quite a lot of marketing teams.. you know.. if we go in are sometimes.. you know.. they're.. overarching like kpis or objectives are around how many leads they generate.. those sorts of things.. which we.. i mean ruta and i would always go in and not condone necessarily that the marketing team is targeted on how many leads they generate. there certainly is a place like you say ross for this kind of like okay a leader's come in how you now work that lead is to do with how closely you work with your sales team how your marketing is set up do you have actually the resource and the capability to nurture those leads effectively before they become a marketing qualified lead all of that stuff but it's really hard for businesses to actually ditch that especially if that's the way that you've done it traditionally so kind of like what's what's the.. what's the reality of ditching the mql if you're in one of those companies? like so many companies just can't do it. Yeah, so the, if you want to move out away from it, the other sort of camp that it gets talked about a lot, know that sort of there's, there's the cult of Chris Walker for a while there on LinkedIn that was sort of following, you should just do demand creation, which is like, okay, if we're not going to do ABM, we're just going to holistically do what you all used to call inbound marketing. We're going to push out incredible quality content to market, which is a great idea anyway. We're going to going to communities where we're not going to sell at all. We're just going to add a little value. We're to produce our own community where people are going to register and spend all their time there. And at some point it'll work because we've been educating the 95%. And so when they are the 5 % they'll have so much brand equity and salience and we'll be top of mind and the most trusted and it will just happen. Right. you've got the money to.. if you've got the money to have that brand equity which is.. i'm guessing is part of your point but yeah. Yeah, it's incredibly wasteful. Like, because you're educating everybody in case they come in market, in owned and earned channels where you are, you're essentially now more than ever, you are prey to the algorithm. Like before, when we were doing this 510 years ago, and you were pushing organic out, you knew that there were certain patterns of social reach or certain ways and communities that you could get into. especially from the publishing side, you were building up that audience. But now when you look at the ways that LinkedIn is bringing in a TikTok style video feed, they're controlling and soft, generic, like they're soft capping audience reach to the people that already follow you. You're looking at engagement pods where everybody hits share, like all of it's a completely different game. So to take somebody that's been a Demand Joe marketer for their career. They produce content that's valuable and then they push it to the select audience. And ideally that audience is a little bit interested already, which speeds the process up. And you now say, just do it to everyone. Again, it's not actually practical for them to turn on a diamond and produce this way. And when they do, there's even less justification to their boss that it's working. So you've got, both are like long-term game plays that require a lot of the organization to change their mindset. And the payoff is less predictable. So it's not that the payoff can't be enormous and fantastic and it can work. But I think the thing for me that I view as risky about jumping into each of these channels, if you're not set up perfectly, whereas you can divest some of that risk by doing education into lead gen as a funnel well, is that you can predict those flows, measure it and improve yourself over time. Whereas with the other ones, they are big bets that are long term and high investment. Agreed. Just boom. Shablam, as Emma likes to say. of that, could go for hours doing that. we, we spoken our prequel about people being kind of mad at MQLs and at lead gen in general. because it either doesn't work for them, AKA they don't get any leads or when they do get leads, then the kind of conversion rate of those leads into opportunities is really shy. And having come from a business before where lead gen did work. And by the way, we didn't even measure MQLs, we just measured pipeline. at that point, and we use things like Inbox Insight. It's all about the quality of what you put in and what you put out there and then making sure that whoever's following up knows exactly what they're talking about and can talk to the points and address the, whatever it is that your content is doing. If you're just putting out some random fucking ebook that has never converted on your website and you think that a Legion company or whatever it might be is going to... turn this around and make it work for you. It's not, you like it's, still have to have quality marketing for it to actually convert and work. And maybe that's why people get so mad at both Legion and MQL. It's because they are shit. If it's shit, it's shit, right? You need to fix your marketing. It's not the naming of the thing that's not working. It's probably your marketing that doesn't work. Yeah, I can't sing, but I've heard that Harry Styles is very popular. So I think it's how you do it. Not necessarily that it doesn't work ever. Right. And so that I think is a brilliant point. The content is still what drives that engagement with that lead magnet. I was on a training course and they brought in a brilliant guy called Udi Ladegore. who's the chief evangelist now with CMO at Gong when they were doing incredible stuff. And he had this really memorable piece of advice, which was make your content so good people would pay for it. Like keep going until it's so good it's a product of its own, then give it away for free, which is what we were all attempting to do in the old days before we had to generate more and more more leads and more more data. And that doesn't necessarily mean pay 50 grand for a Forrester report and run it so no one can question if your content was good. It means actually get into the weeds of like, what does this audience care about? Let's build something that solves their pain, educates them and genuinely helps them and then deliver it at pace to the right companies. That's always how this was designed to work. So that I think is a really good point. You still need to have the asset that's going to drive the value. think the other part to this as well that i think is very often forgotten because people.. because there's this mechanism where we go.. it's a lead, it's an mql, it's an sql.. whatever.. whatever mechanism you have.. whatever you want to name it.. is that people do forget that it is a.. it is a person that downloaded the thing or interacted with you. so if you then move them into the mql bucket and you're like.. i'm just gonna.. i'm gonna treat all mqls like this and there's no relationship building aspect to your process.. the content should be amazing. it should be singing like you said ross and rusa. it should be this amazing thing. we should be delivering it to the channels where people are actually accessing the content as well. not just you know bombarding people with email or whatever it is you do. but also yeah it's the next stage is like how are you actually building a relationship with the person at the end of it. so like it.. and that is.. that is i think partly where some of the challenge is with an mql. because like when we kick it over sales very often what happens is i sent them two emails they didn't.. they didn't reply. they didn't book a discovery call. thank you lever. see you later. whereas actually if you.. if they.. yeah i sent them a linkedin.. i sent them a linkedin connection request. what more do you want? but actually if it is about.. yeah if.. if you.. no no but if you are.. if you have an icp.. if your total addressable market isn't everybody, which it shouldn't be.. you should.. be able to spend the time building relationships with those marketing qualified leads. That is what the job is in my mind. So it's like the great content and the relationship building. And then yes, maybe at some point you might be able to convert those people. that's.. that's the way i.. i see it. so like.. i think.. i mean we've kind of answered the next question which is what do we actually need to do to convert people? which is the main.. but is there anything else you'd add ross other than the amazing content and the kind of relationship aspect to it all? Yeah, I think that's a fantastic point. having an idea of, from a personal level, what sales and the SDRs should be doing with early stage leads to make a connection with those individuals for when they then are readier, more interested. I really go in for personal invite to events or virtual events or deeper one-on-one content engagement that will help them in their research process. If it's on ICP, it's high fit. is a good job title. Like start prospecting in early just by offering value and not trying to close them too soon in order to bring that company in, you know, further into your marketing materials from a human. think, you know, I think that really works. I've heard good things about gifting in the same way. You know, people using Sendoso and ReachDesk and want to like personally, I think it's overused and a little bit overpriced. If you send everybody a coffee voucher, right, and you don't put any work into it. But I've also, you know, there are case studies where it goes really well. So, and clients of ours that do things like content bundle packs or send them out something from there, in the States, they're really into their Alma mater on their university. they'll like find the rep that went to the same uni and they'll send them a hoodie with a name on it or whatever. So like there are ways that you can route leads much more effectively than just email drip. And that Agreed. connection I think is really important. The other thing that I'm seeing and that I'm focused on at the moment is the amount of frequency you need to generate against the lead. So we used to have single touch MQLs as our core product. We generate the best leads we can with the assets that you give us and then we pass them to you and then you do all this nurture work. Clients are then struggling to cut through with that nurture work. And so now more of that process is coming prior to the lead being passed to the customer. So we've seen a massive increase in double touch campaigns. We've added new product lines that have programmatic and social to do touches to people during that whole buyer's journey to make the campaigns more full funnel and more effective because you need to reach these people over and over again. And your old school marketo email drip, like you said, isn't alone enough anymore. But having all of that mechanics internally, and all the right data sharing between the partner and you is really complicated. so, you know, not especially if you're a challenger brand or a disruptor, you don't have access to all the gear. If you're an enterprise, IT doesn't let you, right? You know, it takes three months to get pixel down, you know, so there's these huge difficulties in terms of like, the bigger you are, the more you could do, the more compliance you have to get through the smaller are the scrappy you are, you don't have the budget. So we're seeing a lot of the publisher landscape has to pick up that nurture slack and be your digital trading desk as well in order to generate engagement like before, during, and after. pushing towards a more always on mindset into the ICP over time is definitely more effective. Having a look at like this. I just did a research study into B2B tech buyers and a lot of it is similar to the stats we've all heard where there's, you know, over 10 people in a DMU. 11 % of the sample had more than 20 people involved in the tech decision making. And like, that they don't all want to buy it. Like just, there are people. So like, I get asked if we should buy tech all the time. I've not heard of the brand. I'm not really that keen on the business case for the company. And I'm still involved in the decision. your, your nurture flows and the way that you need to surround people with, with, you know, leads and ads over time is one thing actually convincing them is about different information needs fed to different personas. So making sure that you're like streaming it based on what you know about who's involved in the decision making process or the buyer group. and making sure you have something to say to the finance person, something to say to the end user, and something to say to the person driving the business change has to be in the plan in every channel. if that's complex to do internally, that's what we've ended up picking up more and more of when you don't have the head count yourself or the tech yourself. And to me, that's like where the magic of ABM happens is in those buying committees. That's really what to me makes ABM stand out from just picking a bunch of people you want as clients. It's that rounded. Everyone is involved. Okay. We know the CFO will be blah, blah, So we're retargeting them here. We're providing content here where we're actively reaching out and seeking these people out instead of just having like, yeah, this is our lead in the system and this is who we're going to deal with. you know. The more expensive your software, the more complicated that's going to be. And on your point of like making sure that you're marketing throughout their journey. my God, if you're an in-house marketer and you have an MQL, please don't just stop there. Like don't just then drop it off to sales and never touch that person again. You need to keep those touch points up like Ross said. So even if you're in-house, make sure you have retargeting lists and make sure you're still sending them maybe a newsletter with an important share and you're inviting them to stuff. Like do not just... put them into the graveyard of MQLs that you're never going to touch again, because it's a huge waste of money to be doing that. Yeah, because you've spent all that time marketing them. You've captured the lead. It's like, why would you now, why would you now stop? I think for the scrappier marketers out there who are like, my God, how the hell do I do this? Obviously Ross has given some really good examples about content. We've talked about relationship building as well. But also this is where things like communities come in and come in very handy because you've got this kind of like one to many. opportunity where you've kind of.. someone's in your community if they can be actively engaged or at least lurking looking at your content seeing that your customers are commenting on stuff all of that kind of stuff being actively engaged with your your brand and the your community if your community has a purpose that's not just insert tech company community where you can just moan about the tech like it has to be more than that then then i think again that's just a really good way of keeping that relationship going, staying in of that person. Hockey.. HockeyStack just did this report a little while ago that basically said we now need 266 touch points to close a deal guys. 266. I mean... yeah. my challenge around this, this paradigm is like, not on average, like the challenge, the challenge with being like a data driven marketer is you use sort of, you think about your strategy in bulk, right? How many leads are going to flow through the funnel? How many conversations are those, you know, in general lead to a certain amount of sales engagement? And then what's my pipeline? you know, sales velocity. Okay, I need to put this in to get this out and we turn it all into the, you know, the engagement factory. But I'm a lot more interested in what are the, what are the levers you can pull on the emotional journey of that prospect to increase the throughput of that funnel and make it more efficient and make it more engaging. One is show them more stuff, 266 touch points, right? Show them more stuff so they can't ignore you. The other is showing better stuff, right? like, yeah, or show them stuff they, you know, that, that they trust that they care about you. So each touch point is more impactful. And that's that, community or relationship piece. Although I was having a chat with a marketing director of a HR tech brand who was telling me that at a certain point in the funnel, they bring in an existing customer during the pitch process and their growth is like above 30 % per year. Who's stealing our moves? been listening to this podcast or what? Unless you had a beard and a voice changer router, I think it was a different person, but I could be wrong. I thought it was a great move. If you can prove that you have this engaged cohort of customers and you can turn that into something like, Clay are working really hard at building out their, like Salesforce did in the old days, building out their channel of experts that can help you and advocate for you and then cutting them in affiliates to make sure they're really motivated. All of these moves are a way to... to establish yourself in the category and speed up that pipeline conversion. From the digital side, if anybody goes to a certain, this we do for ourselves and I wanna see a larger scale if it works for customers, is get past a certain point in the HubSpot pipeline and that an account level, we run linked display ads around our... testimonials of our customers that don't click to us, they click to the G2 reviews page. it's, it's life cycle is only within the point where you're thinking about us. So prior to that, it's content and support and education post that is the customer marketing funnel and advocacy. And you actually have a campaign manager. So marketing sort of steps away at that point, but in that window where you're trying to show somebody else, it's like, show them a quote, show them a big number, click through to lots of social proof. And so like I think there are particular spaces and SAS is one of them where marketers are pretty on it and they've got all of these tactics and we have all these playbooks. I just don't want to see us throw those out the window because life's getting noisier with AI salespeople and it's harder to cut through. Well, actually we need to think about how do we improve as a cohort of professionals. rather than just, you know, the grass is greener, let's entirely shift our focus and attempt something we've never done before. if we are keeping the mql what does that mean for lead gen versus demand gen? Jack shit. Hahahaha Stop talking shit. Yeah. dump them or change them to have MQLs. It's fine. But I'll let Ross talk because he's our guest and not me. No, I'm here for it. think we agree. So we have this discussion a lot internally because there are customers of ours that the pendulum swings towards the demand creation, demand generation side or brand. And we need to support those tactics or the pendulum swings back. they're like, I'd like quadruple touch, burnt leads, please, because sales don't trust me. And they have to be ready. And with both of them, you end up taking a more holistic approach where you're trying to advocate joining these things up and tucking the lead gen under the demand gen to make the lead gen more effective. And I think we all know that, putting it into a practical set of steps is sort of tricky because every business has different funnels and different pipelines. I view it as demand generation pushes your message to the market with valued content to know that they have a problem and increase problem awareness. Lead gen increases solution awareness. So you're showing them that you exist within the category, you can solve that problem for them. And ideally, they know that they have that problem already agitated to the point when you do that. If they happen out of sequence, as long as you are, you know, still doing a holistic plan, you're going to touch them with the proof that they have pain, and the proof that you can solve it. Yeah, should we wrap up with our gossip? Ready? Yeah. So to wrap up the episode, we would love to ask you if you have any marketing gossip to share with us, something that you love, something that you hate, something that's living in your head rent-free. I won't go with anything I hate because I feel like I've been quite ranty already. Something that's going positive, something that is living rent free that I'm really keen on and I want to explore more is the idea of content like this, long form video or audio content that's more personal being repurposed into something that runs within the DemandGen tool set. And what I mean by that is that, you know, we've been looking at partnering with influencers within a client, you know, internal subject matter experts or external advocates that already have a community of their own and a voice. everybody's, you know, those demand creation tactics and those communities that we talked about earlier, they have a lot of trust already built and your brand can leverage that. But in B2B, it's still pretty early. And there's a lot of brands that don't really know how to leverage that and especially don't know how to like. mechanize it into the funnel that we've been talking about during this conversation. So we're working on some stuff at the moment, which takes the clips of the long form. It takes them posting on your behalf and connects it to your thought leadership talking points, your assets for the lead gen campaign, your digital targeting, so that you bridge across, you know, I'm going to push the ebook and I'm going to get the touches and I'm going to generate the leads with people are going to know who I am, they're going to care about us and they're going to know that that person already thinks I'm awesome and they've said it about me rather than me saying it about myself. That's sort of the new thing I'm really excited about. One of our guests way back, maybe season two or something, he runs a LinkedIn paid ads agency. And one of the things that he does is whenever he, so it's for their own, lead gen demand gen whatever, side of the business is whenever he's on a podcast like this, he basically clips up stuff where he sounds good and he sounds like he knows what he's saying. And then he will put them in as a asset to be, retargeted to whoever it is that they're. looking at engaging on LinkedIn. it's like outside content or it will literally just, yeah, filled in. it's kind of like social proof, right, in itself, because you're talking to other people about it. So yeah. been.. yeah.. you've been invited onto credible.. i mean i'm calling us a credible podcast haha. but you know like.. it matters. it matters right? so yeah. i love it. think it's really cool. thank you so much for joining us ross. it's been awesome. so we're keeping the mqls.. mqls for life guys. we're doing it. we're just doing it pro.. we're just doing it properly. that's.. that's the caveat. so thanks for joining us again ross. we will.. ross is going to be on blameitonmarketing.com. so when this episode airs if you want to ask ross any spicy questions that you don't want to ask on linkedin because your boss is there.. Ross is going to be there to answer them. And yeah, we hope to see you all very soon.