Website Rebuild? STOP | E79 with Alice Walton

Why do so many senior marketers think a website rebuild will solve all their problems? 🤔 We’ve all seen it—new leadership comes in, declares the site outdated, and suddenly, it’s full steam ahead on a total overhaul… with zero strategy behind it.

In this episode, we’re joined by Alice Walton, website expert and our new Blame It on Marketing bestie, to unpack the fresh start fallacy—why marketers keep rushing into website redesigns, why it backfires, and what to do instead.

We get into:
✅ Why marketers love (and overuse) the “new website” play
✅ How to know if you actually NEED a new site (or just tweaks)
✅ The #1 mistake companies make before redesigning
✅ Why some brands obsess over their site… and others ignore it completely
✅ How bad CMS choices force unnecessary redesigns
✅ The secret war between devs & marketers (and how to win it)
✅ SEO, CRO, and why marketers STILL forget them in a rebuild
✅ How AI & voice search are changing website strategy

If you’re tired of watching websites get scrapped for no reason—or if you’ve been guilty of pushing a redesign without a real plan—this one’s for you.

🎧 Listen now and let’s talk about what actually works.

We’re Ruta and Emma, the marketing consultants behind Blame it on Marketing. 

If you’re in B2B SaaS or professional services and looking to do marketing that actually drives revenue and profit, we’re here for it.

Visit blameitonmarketing.com and let’s get this show on the road.

Transcript

0:00

Hi everyone and welcome back to blame it on marketing with your favorite marketers Emma and Ruta i'm adding that in now for 2025 why not manifesting with your favorite marketers and in this week's episode we are going to be talking about every every senior marketers I don't know why they do this, I mean, we're to get into it, but why people decide to change their website without necessarily thinking it through. And we are joined by our website guru and our new Blame It on Marketing bestie, Alice, Alice Walton. Welcome, Alice. And we met Alice, actually, at a marketing tech conference. And we ended up next door to each other, which was really delightful. And Alice was awesome and kept introducing people to us. and we loved her so much and when we found out that she was involved in building websites we were like we need to have this conversation because it's been a long time coming. So welcome Alice, We're just waiting for Alice. when I said, yeah, actually I build websites that you would then say, please, please don't speak to us. Well you were very kind to us and actually Alice also recently helped me with my website when something was wrong and Alice stepped in and saved the day because she is a real life hero. So before we get into the topic of websites which we're very excited about, Alice please tell us your deepest darkest marketing slash website fuck up. Okay, well, is it okay if it's not linked to websites? But it is linked to podcasts and marketing. So I would say that, and it's a bit of a running joke now. So I actually started a podcast at the start of this year about AI and marketing, and it's the podcast that nobody's ever listened to. And I say it's a fuck up because Obviously, when you create a podcast, eight episodes of a podcast, you do kind of expect them to go out there, you know, like one listener, like my mum. But we didn't launch them. And yeah, so that would be my biggest fuck up in that sense. But it was great, it was such a great experience and actually then led to loads of opportunities. Do you still want to get the episodes out there? Do know what, really, so there's a couple, I interviewed Heather Murray for one and that's actually how I met her and how we started working together. And that's probably one of my most favorite hours spent just chatting to somebody because we just got stronger for AI at that point. That was early at start of this year. Yeah, I would, yeah. It just was wrong time, wrong place, I guess. don't, especially you two, because you work so well together, but you know that you have to rely on the other person to show up. or at least be 100 % in and if somebody isn't, through no fault of their own, just circumstances, life changes and actually having to make money as well, I think you can't do it 70%, 60%. So yeah, was a great experience and I definitely could see us releasing this, but again, because it's about AI, it's so outdated now, it would be like, what is that tool? I feel like that's a very, very reasonable and self-reflective fuckup. But yeah, if you want any help getting those episodes out, just let us know. We'll get it happening. Yeah, exactly. So let's talk about today's topic. Again, I'm surprised we haven't covered it because I feel like it's an actual marketing trope. We've all been there. We've been at a company and some new senior leadership comes in and they're like, oof, we need to scrap the website. We need to redesign and start from scratch. And then you're like, But why? And they're like, well, we need a, we need a refresh. And you're like, yeah, but why? And they're like, it's outdated. And they don't actually give you any good reasons. So what is it with senior marketers being in love with a little website rebuild? And why do we, we, I don't include myself in this people, why do they think that it's going to solve all their problems? Should we start with why in particular new senior marketer, people coming into the role for the first time, or not even the first time, but coming into a new role? I think, and I've sort of labelled it as like a fresh start fallacy, this idea that I think you come into this kind of role, it's really natural that you make your mark in this position. I think websites feel so tangible, like it feels like a real visible change when you... actively go in and make that kind of your project. I also think sometimes it can be seen as a bit of a quick win, which obviously from my point of view is crazy, I yeah, I think as soon as you start to unpick that thread, you realize it's not. But actually, think again, especially if they had in their old... role of a site that was working, that was doing, was performing, I think they can sometimes feel like they can just copy that over. also there's maybe the other side of it with a sort of a rebuild of a site is that it involves lots of things. So strategy, rebranding, repositioning. think sometimes it can feel a little bit like, right, we'll roll up our sleeves and we'll get going with it. And I can imagine actually it's the same vibe, like the same sort of vibe as like social media, like, you know, a social media strategy coming in and knowing like, we're gonna sort all these channels out we're gonna get our message out there and we're gonna post X amount of times a day. I think it's the same, I think it's that same feel. It's almost like a catch-all. So like, we need to work on the positioning, we need to work on the messaging, we need to work on some strategy, and working on the website kind of achieves a bit of everything of that. it's like the home of that isn't it? it's like.. it's like the place where you can demonstrate that the.. in the quickest way. i was about to say easiest and then i stopped myself because i know that's not easy. but it definitely does go with this like.. we need to.. yeah.. we need to understand our value proposition. we need to understand our brand. we need to elevate our brand awareness. and i think that.. that desire to do that. I feel like that has.. I don't know if you guys feel like this but I've seen it happen quite a lot and I'm sure Alice you've seen it more times than us because this is what you do as a job. But I think what it does is there's an element in my mind that where I feel like this is what damages like the reputation of senior marketers because when you do all of that stuff I think there is a... maybe a lack of understanding about.. and this is the sort of fits into the what goes wrong bit of this conversation.. there's a lack of understanding about the fact that if you're doing those other projects other things are taking a hit, right? if you're focused on driving revenue and pipeline and or even generating leads while you're working on those big projects.. because let's be honest i mean alice i don't know what the average time for building a website is but it sure as isn't.. it's not two months is it? you know that.. I I know. you into that space where you are.. you are really risking like a setback but you do it because as a new senior marketing you want to make a big impact. do think that's right guys? Yeah, well, think as well, touching upon this idea of, so I know, know loads and loads of amazing heads of marketing, fractional CMOs that just shout strategy till they're, I was gonna say blue in the face, red in the face, violent, violent in the face and violent. But I think as well, from a stakeholder point of view, that that isn't usually seen as, I don't want to say waste of time or waste of resources, but this idea of like, no, we just want to get going. We just want to get going. You know, come on, we brought you in. And I think sometimes actually it's not even the case of the senior marketer making the mistake of a new website being the sort of the be all and end all as they step in. think it's usually a push from those that have brought them in. Yeah, so. It's almost like it's not okay to just be there for the first, I don't know, 30, 50, 60 days and just absorb and figure out the bucket list of what needs to be done and what priorities. Just like, well, we're here, but just go and do stuff. Website, look, shit, let's go do the website. But yeah, it almost feels like they're not given that space to just be like, okay, let's figure it out. Let's see what's happening with the team. It's one thing interviewing and you can ask all the best questions and all of that, but then you actually get into the role and you're like, okay, I see these dynamics here. I see this, you know, maybe we need to work on like performance management or like task division or like, you know, there's lots of things to go after when you, when you start a new role, especially as someone who's managing most likely other people, right? Yes, definitely. so we spoke about this in terms of like a very, gracious and pure way, right? Like it's, it feels like it's okay to have that desire to want to make an impact, Why do you think rushing with the website rebuild is going to be potentially problematic? if we talk about maybe like common pitfalls is the idea of jumping straight into design without really understanding the data, like not having a look at what they currently got in place, what's working. I think a lot of the time we talk about what's not working and what's not performing. But actually, you know, what is working and what is resonating with those that are visiting our site? I think. sometimes, especially if, God, I feel like I'm going back to the social media side of things, but if you've got a strong social media game, you've got a strong graphics department or a designer that you've got in, that sometimes the aesthetics can kind of take over the user experience. Actually, sometimes a site doesn't need a full facelift, actually just looking at the bare bones of the navigation or the way that people are using it or things that aren't. I know I've said that, like things that aren't working, getting those fixed first and then being able to review the performance after making those fixes. I think as well, sometimes, I don't know if it's because it's technical, but the idea of like the website sort of doesn't sit within the marketing strategy. It's like a separate project. And sometimes, I don't know if that's because there's like, suddenly you have... people from different departments needing to have a say on what's going on with the website, so maybe that gets lost. don't know, you guys will know better than I do when it comes to like how it's, why sometimes it becomes sort of left out of that marketing strategy or a whole new strategy put in place for the website that doesn't resonate at all with what you've currently got in place. I've seen many businesses feel very interestingly about their website. So there's businesses that are absolutely obsessed with their website, but not in like a helpful way, in a way of like, they absolutely hate it and think that all of their problems are because of the website. And then you go in and you're like, no, I'm gonna give you like five things you need to do before you even touch the website because you've got much more important stuff going on. And then I've also seen... kind of a total apathy towards the website where it's like at the bottom of the list, because it's just like, whatever, like it's just there, right? It's where people check us out if they wanna Google us. But there's also, think, especially for Emma and I, when we work with a lot of founders and like early stage companies, there's a lot of ego and pride in websites. So it's like, like this is how people are gonna see me. I wanna have a website that I'm proud of. And then those people kind of forget. who they're building the website for, which is their audience, not themselves. And that's when you start getting like all of these opinions from everywhere on design and blah, blah, blah. So even if you do have the data and you know what works and what doesn't work and you've tried and you fixed and you've tested, it still kind of gets pushed and skewed because there's a lot of like personal value in what the website looks like, which is kind of weird. Do you know why, I guess we know why that is, but how do you handle that? is really tricky. i think we would always go.. i mean this is the thing that.. where we wouldn't touch the.. this is why when Ruta and i do go into companies we don't touch the website first. apart from to look at performance things we're not brand girly so the way it looks is not our problem. we're not as worried about that as other marketing directors or CMOs might be. But I certainly think, especially when it is a founder and they're particularly invested in the website and in particular, I think usually it's around the copy that is the thing that gets people. think making sure that the first things that you are doing are talking about your ideal, having that ideal customer profile, having the data that sits underneath, like what is going on under the hood of the website, not what it looks like. Is it doing the job that it should be doing? You know, what.. what is the buyer experience like for somebody when they hit your site? and if you can look at those things first and then have like.. what i think is a reasonable conversation.. you can then start to unravel that.. that.. that kind of like founder mess. because you know.. if you see things for example like you've got a terrible conversion rate but yet your hero image and your.. you know.. your top headline bit of copy on your website is something very ethereal that no one understands because it's all very like.. ambiguous but aspirational and there's no book a demo button and then there's a and then the next thing you know there's a pop-up saying download our brochure sales brochure with six fields except our cookies then of course of course your conversion rate's appalling because you haven't thought about your audience at all so i think that's the the way that we always frame it i also really often saying.. i don't even know if this stat is correct so i'm probably going to get hauled over the coals by anyone i've said this to. but i usually go you've probably got about 10 seconds to tell people what you do when they hit your home page and if they don't get that you're going to lose them. so it's like that's the experience you should be driving for. And always going back to the ICP and kind of also with, yeah, always just like if there's an edit made and you're not sure about it as a marketer, be like, I don't think this matches the ICP, here's why. And also oftentimes founders are really deep into what they're doing. So their level of expertise on the topic is like way, way, way higher. So they're going to end up saying stuff that doesn't make sense to the normal buyer. And then, and then, and then, and then. So what I do is, I make sure that when we're doing an ICP, I actually rate that, profiles, both readiness and like technical savviness. So we can, we can match up where they're at. like, if, your knowledge is like at a two out of five and the founders at a five, I can then have kind of a reasoning to why we're dumbing it, dumbing it down. because I find that that's also like a real sticking point of like, Yeah, but we should be like on the bleeding edge and saying all of these things. And it's like, no one knows what that means. No. They just want, they want to know what the thing is. I love the idea of, I hadn't thought about it actually in that way, of that tech savvy ratings card. Because if you think, if you're using like a LLM, right, and you put in something and it comes out with something quite formal and then you bring it down, it's that hot and cold vibe, bringing it down a couple of pegs to making it more informal, more chatty, and it's the same feel. I hadn't thought about. actually not just from an SAP point of view, like, and a user experience and a user journey, but this idea of like actually how tech savvy are these people that are coming to the site, you know, especially when it comes to, like you're.. you're all.. yeah that's it. and also it's like.. so like within.. so one of my clients.. i think i can use this as an example.. one of my clients.. within our icp there are kind of like.. there's like a grade.. yeah this gradient of where they are in terms of their tech savviness and their ability to understand what their problem is. you know? and so like.. we actually do really well with the people who you'd probably categorize as laggards you know who are a bit maybe a bit even ludditey you know like they might be switching from literal paper to a platform you know so if you're going to sell to those people like in the first instance make it easy don't make their life hard don't give them some like i mean it is it's copy it's design it's everything it's website functionality it's like even how even through to how they book the demo like the whole experience needs to be really straightforward because our ICP is a group of people who are not used to necessarily purchasing stuff in this way. In the same way that I think a lot of us and I can imagine a lot of people's ICPs, especially if you sell tech, you know, are becoming more and more tech savvy because of the way that you buy in B2C, you know. You just have to think about Amazon. You're like, easy. Even like flipping it on its head, I've got a client who, when I asked about the mobile version of what they've got going on, they're like, it doesn't matter. We don't really worry about that because most of our leads come through desktop. And I sat there thinking, well, yeah, but is that chicken or egg here? But actually, because maybe you're not necessarily technical, or maybe you don't necessarily rise on your phone, actually, Again, and I think this goes back to what you were saying, you going back to your, I don't know if you can call ICP strategy, but that kind of like, it's the foundations, isn't it? And you being able to refer back to that and be like, well, you might not be, but actually the people that are coming to us, especially if we're selling a tech, like a tool or a piece of tech or piece of software, like they probably are, and they probably haven't got very much time. They probably are rising everything through referrals on forums or on... through email or whatever it is that they just want to be able to click on and then be taken there and be like... yeah, and if you're posting on social and expecting people to go to your site, they're on their mobile. There's, there's just no way about it. Like they are on their mobile. Yeah. who is who i mean i mean like that formal working situation also let's think about the fact that like your icp in most cases you know everyone's always like if they're really senior they're really busy no we're all just really fucking busy so if you are researching buying something the likelihood is you are not necessarily doing that during your day job hours because you can't because you don't have time to do your day job and research. so you are.. you are. you.. the likelihood is you are sat in front of netflix in the evening with your phone in your hands looking at tech. because.. yeah. because we're all losers. in i-tea-roll-tabs open and doing your christmas shopping at the same time. sorry this is.. that's.. i've dated the episode already. so one of the things that always.. grinds my gears and i've because i have seen senior marketers do this when i've been in more junior roles is why do see some senior marketers forget that they need to build a website with seo and conversion rate optimization in mind and go straight in for the like look and feel and the vibes Thinking about your resources, thinking about where your budget spend is, thinking about the amount of plates that, and I am fully on the marketer's side, so there we are, but you the amount of things that you're now responsible for. I think a lot of the time it's a, we need to get something done, and we need to keep up as well. If you're seeing competitors, mixing things up, even if it's just face value, I think there's a pressure there as well, and kind of knowing, expecting that you're gonna get an email or a forwarded link from a stakeholder going, have you seen this? So I get that as well. So there is that, definitely. But I think as well, it's maybe like a visual track side of things, trying to kind of get more excited about design rather than data. I think it's a lot easier to justify budgets if you're spending it on like visible elements, designs and features and animation, but I guess maybe the user experience just isn't as glamorous. And it's easier to sell beautiful designs and beautiful site changes to your stakeholders to... especially if they've only got a few, a very short time to be able to review. I think it shows impact more so than that. But actually, and also, and I won't even go down the side of things of your website being just a brochure, because I think that's even an outdated view, even for people that are a bit Luddite, I think everybody's kind of seeing the value of websites and understanding why I say that. I like that. seeing the fact that it needs to be performing and it needs to be doing a job for you in that space. honestly, I think it is that it's harder to show return of investment on prevention rather than cure. you can't measure the people that didn't get frustrated and leave the site. but you can measure bounce rates and you can measure abandoned carts when the user experience is poor, right? Or you can maybe quantify that the sales that you made from the forms, sorry, that the sales that you made were because your forms were easy to complete, but you can obviously count the amount of forms or the abandonment rate when they're not. So I think a lot of the time it's really difficult as marketers to justify your user experience budgets. and that it's a lot easier to get the budget to fix a problem rather than to prevent one, if that makes sense. That's my view on outside of it. nailed it. Mm-hmm. I think the other thing I would love to add on this is a lot of the times, you haven't done a bunch of website redesigns from a technical perspective, so you haven't done website redesigns on SEO and on CRO and on even like CMS usability, you're not going to know to ask for that necessarily. Yeah. And then if your developer, whoever, or designer, whoever's making the site, if they also are not... interested in that, they're not pushing that on you. It's just going to get left behind. So my, partner is a software developer and he absolutely hates me because I made him build me a website on the HubSpot CMS because I absolutely love using HubSpot. It's integrated. Like I'm not going to go off, but developing in HubSpot for a developer is kind of ugly and clunky and not great. Like he's built his own plugins to just make his life easier. But the way he's built my site now is he never has to touch the website again. because I can fully customize it, change it, do whatever the hell I like to it. And he's done it once. He absolutely hated it and probably won't do it again for me, but it's perfection because I can do everything that I want to do. And that's my other point is when you're rebuilding a website, yes, that's SEO and CRO, but my God, please don't forget about your CMS and your ability as a marketer to change the website. Because if you build something that is static and you can't change your You'll rebuild your website in another six months. i mean and that happens so often and you see that where people have got like a small budget and then it's almost like someone's locked the door and you can't get in and you're literally like the amount of people that i have spoken.. when i'm like you you can't do anything with this site now.. you're done. that too. i mean that is.. that is another whole episode. I am, I'm probably gonna get outed. Am I gonna get pushed out by the development? No, because I actually do feel that there's more of me. feel like it's, it's one thing and one for out. A massive, the fact that you would have to spend like, I don't know, call, email, carry a pigeon, like smoke signal just to get like one part of your website, one word on like the third paragraph changed. It's maddening to me. actually, and maybe it's because of the background that I've got of building sites for, so I started building sites for smaller businesses, people that didn't have, this is quite a long time ago, but people that didn't have the budget to spend on agencies. And that's kind of where I came into the market, because I was like, this feels like gatekeeping, it feels unfair that you'd be having to spend thousands and thousands of pounds at the time to get a brochure website, to get signposted. Mm-hmm. because me being brought in and it was never with the intention of retaining. It was always the, to be honest, I don't like commitment. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on here. I am married. I don't like commitment. I like the idea of it being self-sufficient. know, somebody being able to go in and use their own, you know, use their own site exactly how they want to use it, to be able to update it when it needs updating, to be able to add in as much as they possibly can and have somebody there on hand. whether that is in a retainer position or a one-off cost or whatever it is when things go wrong, or things need to be really updating or refreshing. And we're talking like 10 years ago. So if you think of the changes in tech, how accessible it is now to build your own site, right, you're wrongly, but being able to make those changes because the user face is so user friendly, it should be all about that, I think. I don't know if we've gone off on a tangent, just, I've got my safe box there. no. I think it's totally relevant for website rebuilding. And I think that's maybe a lot of the time why people do keep rebuilding websites because they're not built in a way that's compliant with how a marketer wants to work. And I'm just going to say this so we can clip this. If your marketing team cannot change the marketing website by themselves without a developer, you did it wrong. This shouldn't be your life. you need a CMS that you can control and change things on. Or if, you know, if there's somebody else not allowing you to change it, cause it's like products website, again, something's gone wrong. can i add on back you know to our question which was to do with us about the like the seo cro thing and why because this is in the back of my head because alice you posted something on linkedin which was to do with talking about you know the seo tools making it really difficult for generalist marketers to understand seo because there's this whole other language set and you know and then you go into a tool you look into sem rush and unless you you are relatively competent at seo stuff and seo language you have no freaking clue what to do with it or what any of it means you'd be like i don't know so i think one of the reasons that senior marketers don't build websites with this stuff in mind is because the industry if you like of seo holds generalist marketers out like it's almost like we've gone no no no we're really technical seo's super technical you can't understand it generalist marketer And therefore we just like lots of people go, well, it's easier for me to just build the thing, get the thing built, make it look nice and worry about it later because A, we know it's really expensive and B, I don't understand fully the ramifications of doing it without it in mind. I don't know if you guys have experienced that, but I've certainly seen that. And then I don't think that the SEO community are always particularly very helpful in helping us understand. But it's because they're so deep in, right? They're like deep, deep, deep. If you're making a new website, you really don't need to be that deep. So when do we know that we actually need a new website? Okay, so I've written down the honest signs. You need one now, forget one now. Okay, so I've written down the honest signs you need a new website, okay? So I think, and what I get quite a lot at the moment is you're moving from start up to scale up. So something that you have put in place that has done its job, it's got you to this point, but actually you have outgrown your site, your brand has matured and your site still feels like a startup. In my head, your website should be your hardest working employee and I think if it's not keeping up with that, then it's time. Technical red flags, so I think like if your loading time is too long, the mobile version is outdated. This links back to what we were saying, this idea of you're chasing, you're playing chase the web developer, you know, that every time you need a simple text change or any kind of small thing, or not even small, just like not having that control over your site. I think that is a big one to reassess what you've currently got going on. Accessibility. So I think... Again, that is awful to say, but I always thought it was like an afterthought with accessibility and also got lumped in with user experience, which I guess it is, but I think it's that next level now, you know, not neglecting accessibility, putting real focus on like some real theory behind colour contrast, like screen reading difficulty, even like text missing from images, kind of doing... a really good review, getting somebody in. So performance issues. So bounce rate is terrible. Your analytics are showing that people are struggling to find what they need. Your conversion rates are low. Just a general health check and it coming out poorly. I would say that it's probably a good time to reassess. I, so I think the biggest one for me, and it's probably my favorite. potentially a t-shirt opportunity, but when somebody says that they go, we do have a website, don't look at it, don't look at it, or we do have a website, but it wasn't me, I'm not responsible for that, that was before my reign. So this idea of like you're cringing when you're handing over your website URL, it's probably time for a change. And then looking at competitors, like, it's yours looks like dated. you're losing opportunities because of that, or you're spending lots of money on different channels, sending them all to a website that is just not converting. I'm going to roll the next two questions into one because I feel like they do. If you need a new one, so if we, if you've, I don't know, you've looked at this, you've identified some of the stuff that you guys have just mentioned. Where do you start? And also, I guess, do you start with trying to find a good developer or agency and how can you sniff a good one out? Okay, no is the answer. I think you start with what you've got going on. So exactly this idea of you auditing your current site, you know, what's actually working? We go back to that and not just guesswork or I think, or so and so reviewed this and said like actual data. Where are you losing people? And what does your, what do your analytics tell you? Talk to your users. I can't get over, I don't know if you guys experience this, but clients that haven't spoken to the people, actual customers, I don't know if it's because we're in that digital age where you don't, they're faceless in some respects, I don't know if I can say that, but you know, actually talk to the people that have used the site or are using the site. You know, what do they struggle with? Why did they choose you? What made them linger? What information do they need? So I guess that is built into, I don't know if that's built into ICPs, but this idea of actually talking to the people that are using your site. Define clear goals. So like what does success look like? How are you going to measure it? What are the problems that actually need solving? What's your budget? And not just thinking about it with respect to the project build, but like ongoing maintenance. You know, what does that actually look like? And how is that built into your overall marketing budget? And then content, a big, I'm like all about content driving design, content driving the site. know, what content do you need? The amount of times I've gone to build a site, I need a site. I need a site now. Lovely. We want this and we want this and we want this. Lovely. Do you have any content for the site? Right, so what are we going to start with? You want me just to build? I mean are we going to have it to be scrolled three times down and there's just no words? I don't know. So... Yeah. some sort of parallax so that it sort of like scrolls by and it's pretty, like no. So yeah, and who's writing it? You know, a big part of the spend I believe should be in the content and like, again, link that in with your SEO strategy, make sure that that is, that the two are married and also then I guess that goes back into like the how will you maintain it and being able to have that control. And then, and only then, do you then look for the right partner and start thinking about design and plan your development approach and consider a launch strategy like the others first. Mm-hmm. And don't let a dev or an agency push you around on the tech. If you know what tech you want, they should be helping you use that tech, not the other way around. Working to what you've already got in place. And actually now more than ever, there's so many different tools that people are using. The integration is massive. Like we haven't really talked about it loads on here, but I think that that's going to be, if you're thinking about planning this and planning a rebuild, I think thinking about what you've currently got and how's the bit of housekeeping. to make sure that whatever you decide to pick, whatever platform you're picking, complements those and works with those well. Absolutely. Wonderful. So is there any marketing gossip that you would like to share with us, good or bad, something you've seen that particularly caught your eye or something that was bad or good, it doesn't matter? probably the thing that cropped up for me last week, so do you guys know perplexity? I barely talked about AI and I think I've up with perplexity, so AI, can we say AI-driven search engine? I guess is probably the easiest way of me explaining it. They're going to start using apps on their tools. So I am massive, so this is probably not gossip because... I don't know yet, but I'm really putting a lot of thought, too much thought really, into what impact are these tools, these LLMs and these sort of AI driven tools that people are using, what impact is that going to have on our sites, on how our sites are seen, how our sites are read, you think as well, this is probably mixing it up a little bit, but this idea of, so voice. being able to search by voice, thinking about your SEO strategy, thinking about your keywords, thinking about how people are going to find you, thinking about how AI is going to find you. I'm loving it. And then thinking again about that kind of ad on top of that and the kind of the monetary side of things. Is that gossip? I mean, that was really wafting, but that's where my brain is at. No, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. it's really interesting now because like you only just have to look at like google search the thing that comes up at the top is the gemini answer Alice, thank you very much for being on today. It was a great conversation and we obviously all had quite a bit of juz to get out about website rebuilds. So I'm glad we had this conversation. Alice will be on Blameitonmarketing.com when this episode airs. So if you wanna ask her any really, really great questions about design, websites, tech, she'll be there for you. And otherwise we will see you in the next episode.